UEFI Boot with ext2 /ext4

[jjr]

FAT32 partition. The partition can be small and must be classified as bootable.

As rych hinted, the bootable flag is irrelevant to UEFI.

It's an old relic to aid BIOS bootloaders[1], and doesn't even exist on GPT.

With GPT, parted confuses things by translating the "boot" flag to its "esp" flag.
But their documentation even words it misleadingly :p https://www.gnu.org/software/parted/man ... e/set.html

‘esp’
(MS-DOS, GPT) - this flag identifies a UEFI System Partition. On GPT it is an alias for boot.

(Again, the "esp" flag is just a parted macro to properly mark an ESP (0xEF on MBR, C12A7328-... on GPT), which in practice can be more trouble than it's worth..)

---
If Porteus had an 'omniscient' install system- it would eliminate many troubles like OP's, without the risk of spreading misleading info. (I am not blaming any one person -- as shown above, even docs can be head-scratching.)

[Ed_P]

FAT32 partition. The partition can be small and must be classified as bootable.

As rych hinted, the bootable flag is irrelevant to UEFI.

It may be irrelevant to UEFI but the USB drive won't boot when used on BIOS systems if it's not set.

[jjr]

FAT32 partition. The partition can be small and must be classified as bootable.

As rych hinted, the bootable flag is irrelevant to UEFI.

It may be irrelevant to UEFI but the USB drive won't boot when used on BIOS systems if it's not set.

Right, but that statement confuses things more, because the Porteus BIOS installer already sets that flag itself, and it won't boot on BIOS without running the Porteus BIOS installer, which you never mentioned. (Probably because he wasn't asking about BIOS.)

The official BIOS installer also doesn't support GPT, which you also didn't mention. (this mod does.)

I'm not trying to fight you. I just don't want OP and others to be confused by inoperative instructions.

Again, these types of threads wouldn't exist if Porteus had a wizard-like installer that asks the user what they want (desired firmwares, desired gpt/mbr type, desired FS layouts, optional ESP marking) and handles partitioning, file copying, and BIOS install, all-in-one.

But I know none of us has time to do that.

[jjr]

... BIOS ...

The official BIOS installer also doesn't support GPT

(That would've been important to mention for BIOS, because OP said he was targeting a hard drive, not a USB stick -- and hard drives over 2 TiB are becoming the norm these days, which rules out MBR.)

[Ed_P]

Again, these types of threads wouldn't exist if Porteus had a wizard-like installer that asks the user what they want (desired firmwares, desired gpt/mbr type, desired FS layouts, optional ESP marking) and handles partitioning, file copying, and BIOS install, all-in-one.

Do you think new Linux users, and even new users from Ubuntu and other Linux system's, will know what type of firmware, gpt/mbr type, FS layouts & etc will be comfortable using such a new system start up? I know if I was faced with this type of setup when I started using Linux I wouldn't be here.

I just don't want OP and others to be confused by inoperative instructions.

Me either and I can assure you my instructions work, I have been using them for quite awhile.

These threads might interest you: UEFI Boot Confusion [Solved] & How to upgrade to UEFI Secure Boot

[jjr]

Again, these types of threads wouldn't exist if Porteus had a wizard-like installer that asks the user what they want (desired firmwares, desired gpt/mbr type, desired FS layouts, optional ESP marking) and handles partitioning, file copying, and BIOS install, all-in-one.

Do you think new Linux users, and even new users from Ubuntu and other Linux system's, will know what type of firmware, gpt/mbr type, FS layouts & etc will be comfortable using such a new system start up? I know if I was faced with this type of setup when I started using Linux I wouldn't be here.

Ed_P, I take that to mean you think it's impossible to develop friendly UIs.

Some basic principles of friendly UI design:

• Word things in a simple, plain-English way
• Use intelligent defaults
• Hide technical options behind Advanced disclosures

Example:
UEFI = "modern computers"
BIOS = "old computers"
Silent default = install for both firmwares

If the target drive is >2 TiB, use GPT. Otherwise, use MBR.
It's not that complicated.
Partitions don't even have to be mentioned: [x] I want a storage area for large files, readable by Windows
(that's referring to the FAT32 file size limitation)

Are you really claiming that the current paradigm of throwing an incomplete install doc at the user and expecting them to muddle through the rest on their own and/or ask for help on a forum -- is somehow ideal?

Are you denying that a graphical wizard with friendly, tiered UX could not possibly reduce some of the install questions/troubles on this forum?

I find it hard to believe you truly believe that

Or you just doubt that it can be done by anyone here. Either way, I find your position deeply frustrating.

I just don't want OP and others to be confused by inoperative instructions.

Me either and I can assure you my instructions work, I have been using them for quite awhile.

Ed_P, let me clarify.

(1)
You wrote "the USB drive won't boot when used on BIOS systems if it's not set"
This would suggest to the casual reader (or possibly OP himself) that setting the boot flag here will enable BIOS booting.
It will not. The implied instruction was inoperative for BIOS booting.
I explained that other steps and caveats would need to be added if you wanted to cover BIOS booting, which your comment suggested.

(2)
Inoperative has a second meaning, which is "not having effect".
Setting the MBR active/boot flag has no effect for installing on BIOS nor UEFI, because the BIOS installer already sets it, and it's meaningless for UEFI.
Adding meaningless instructions (in the case of UEFI) leads people down mental paths that lead to confusion, making harder for smart-but-not-yet-knowledgeable users to understand what they're doing.

Remember, OP is an embedded developer. That's why I entered this thread. It's because I can empathize with someone (OP) being smart but lacking some relevant knowledge, but being given recipes that don't actually provide understanding.

---
I'm being frustrated, and maybe I will regret my tone when I cool down. Or maybe you can understand where I'm coming from. I appreciate the time that you and others contribute to providing support on the forums. I do think that things could be more efficient and effective for everyone (you, me, OP, and others like him).

[jjr]

Ed_P, keep in mind many production-quality Linux distros do include a graphical installer that handles partitioning in a user-friendly, tiered way -- accessible for both basic users and advanced users. See Ubuntu, for example. All installation options can be handled smartly that way. See my longer post above.

So again I'm baffled that you'd argue something like that is impractical.

[Ed_P]

Ed_P, I take that to mean you think it's impossible to develop friendly UIs.

Nope. Anything is possible but time, effort and audience have limitations. Porteus is popular for new users because it is simple for new Linux users to install and use. And there are more people with no experience than AI techs looking for a Linux system to try.

So again I'm baffled that you'd argue something like that is impractical.

A Windows user, new to Linux would walk away from a complicated technical install approach that uses terms they've never heard of. A Windows tech might try it. As for partitions, Windows only sees 1. 2nd partitions and ext2/4 ones Windows doesn't see.

The things I suggest/recommend users do are things that I have done repeatedly that have worked for me.

[jjr]

Anything is possible but time, effort and audience have limitations. Porteus is popular for new users because it is simple for new Linux users to install and use. And there are more people with no experience than AI techs looking for a Linux system to try.

So again I'm baffled that you'd argue something like that is impractical.

A Windows user, new to Linux would walk away from a complicated technical install approach that uses terms they've never heard of. A Windows tech might try it. As for partitions, Windows only sees 1. 2nd partitions and ext2/4 ones Windows doesn't see.

The things I suggest/recommend users do are things that I have done repeatedly that have worked for me.

Ed_P, you are not reading my posts.

Ubuntu is far more popular than Porteus for new users coming from Windows.

Guess what? Ubuntu has a graphical install. It gives basic & advanced partitioning options. Gasp!

>"complicated technical install approach that uses terms they've never heard of"

I literally said:

Basic principles of friendly UI design:

• Word things in a simple, plain-English way
• Use intelligent defaults
• Hide technical options behind Advanced disclosures

Example:
UEFI = "modern computers"
BIOS = "old computers"
Silent default = install for both firmwares

If the target drive is >2 TiB, use GPT. Otherwise, use MBR.
It's not that complicated.
Partitions don't even have to be mentioned: [x] I want a storage area for large files, readable by Windows
(that's referring to the FAT32 file size limitation)
[...]

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you seem to be deliberately not reading my argument.

Anything is possible but time, effort and audience have limitations.

A good UI designer understands user limitations and works with them. Do you understand what a "tiered" UI is? You have used them. That includes those Windows installers where you can just click through the simple default Next > Next > Next ... OR choose Custom/Advanced options.

Are you reading my post? Or am I typing into the wind again.

Yes, people who contribute to Porteus have time limitations too.

I did say "I know none of us have the time." I guess you didn't read it.

Porteus inspires me to dream. That is not wrong. I'm going to hate myself for getting frustrated again. But it is really hard to discuss things if someone isn't even reading.

[Ed_P]

jjr do you see ads on TV for medications? Do you listen to all the side effects a medication has? I don't.

[jjr]

because it is simple for new Linux users to install and use

I also think you overstate this. All of the installation help threads (including this one) I leave you as evidence.

That was why I brought this up. It could much easier and more flexible than it is.

[jjr]

I do get frustrated when someone misconstrues what I say, because they didn't read (repeatedly). I think you should be able to understand that on some level.
[edited: see below]

[jjr]

jjr do you see ads on TV for medications? Do you listen to all the side effects a medication has? I don't.

I don't take medications, and I don't appreciate the ad hominem.

I do get frustrated when someone misconstrues what I say, because they didn't read (repeatedly). I think you should be able to understand that on some level.

Note, I make the text large / bolded / red for my (elderly) dad when he misses things.
He says that helps him. So you might be reading too much into it.

Sorry for misunderstanding you.
(I read that as accusing me of being on medication and experiencing side-effects.. )

Responded to your question below.

[jjr]

I wouldn't maintain an argument while refusing to read someone's rebuttal.

That's what I don't understand from someone.
Very different from an ad (which maybe was subtle insult after all ).

[Vic]

Hey everybody

I can understand someone being upset after paying a lot of money for software like Windows and expecting solutions to problems or shortcomings.

I like Linux (free) stuff because it is like Lego things in software form. Fun.

Let's all have fun here in Linux land.

Vic