The future of Porteus

New features which should be implemented in Porteus; suggestions are welcome. All questions or problems with testing releases (alpha, beta, or rc) should go in their relevant thread here, rather than the Bug Reports section.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#76 by Tonio » 11 Nov 2015, 23:39

francois wrote: Most of us are against climatic changes but still use cars or planes.

What are the main issue here: loosing the maintainer and porteus, being a marginal distribution that will always have difficulty building a critic mass of users and collaborators. It might be worth having a try with arch Linux.
We cannot complain about the weather it is what it is. Cars and planes and all use energy, but that does not cause global warming. That is BS!
Our issue is that we have already lost a developer(Fanthom) and it will be hard for one person only (Brokenman) to maintain Porteus as it is with 8 versions, several desktops and you know. I do not think that Arch is worth a try, I have tested many distributions and do not find anything interesting about it not my cup of tea! :no: I am sorry to say, but many users will not use porteus anymore if it rebases into Arch. :evil: :(
If official Slackware succumbs to systemd :shock: , well then you can say that it was coming, but till that time comes Slackware based distros is what I look to. :Yahoo!:

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#77 by brokenman » 12 Nov 2015, 01:14

the regular porteus will be left to rot
Thanks for your honesty Tonio. I vehemently disagree though. I too have run slackware for many many years. Tried various different flavours of linux but have always come back to slackware. For me it is rock solid stable. If I need a package I compile it. Herein lies a major issue. You have to admit that slackware has a relatively small application choice compared to other distros. In fact a much smaller choice. For a newcomer, compiling a package is not on the cards. I understand slackware is conservative with releases. Fair enough, but the conservativeness is growing more and more.

Many will leave, many will come. Over the years we have already seen that happen. I don't see how you can ascertain that Porteus will die just because of a base change. I can say with certainty that many have left principally BECAUSE the base was slackware and they couldn't get the application they wanted to run on Porteus. If the 'slackware' part is so important, why don't users just install slackware? I believe it is because of the layout and structure of Porteus. The modular concept, ease of use and speed is what draws people.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#78 by Tonio » 12 Nov 2015, 02:24

brokenman wrote:
the regular porteus will be left to rot
Thanks for your honesty Tonio. I vehemently disagree though. I too have run slackware for many many years. Tried various different flavours of linux but have always come back to slackware. For me it is rock solid stable. If I need a package I compile it. Herein lies a major issue. You have to admit that slackware has a relatively small application choice compared to other distros. In fact a much smaller choice. For a newcomer, compiling a package is not on the cards. I understand slackware is conservative with releases. Fair enough, but the conservativeness is growing more and more.

Many will leave, many will come. Over the years we have already seen that happen. I don't see how you can ascertain that Porteus will die just because of a base change. I can say with certainty that many have left principally BECAUSE the base was slackware and they couldn't get the application they wanted to run on Porteus. If the 'slackware' part is so important, why don't users just install slackware? I believe it is because of the layout and structure of Porteus. The modular concept, ease of use and speed is what draws people.
I understand your points, but to be quite honest I will answer as best I can.

Slackware is important. It is simplistic, I really like it I have 3+ machines running it.

Code: Select all

bash-4.3$ cat /etc/slackware-version 
Slackware 14.1
bash-4.3$ uname -a
Linux toshiba 4.1.12-smp #2 SMP Wed Oct 28 18:25:31 CDT 2015 i686 Genuine Intel(R) CPU           T2080  @ 1.73GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
bash-4.3$
The part that is being lost is the porteus that has a slackware base and we can use to rescue/see/view/troubleshoot pcs throughout. We have a porteus as we had our Slax it was our POCKET OS. We could run it anywhere, i486, x86_64. Packages were not problem at least for me. I waited for years to achieve a livecd with a custom tex and I was able to achieve it with Porteus and later also with Slax. I had tried multiple times before, even used Fedora-livecd to create a texlive/tetex live cd so I could typeset documents. I did not give up and succeded. All this and now, it will be changed :( What is the problem that we will not be able to have a livecd/usb like porteus is right now modular and apps can be added/deleted and customization..., etc. With a different base like arch or any other, we will have to start from 0 and it will not be the same.
The modular concept, ease of use and speed is what draws people.
Exactly! This is why people liked it and with Slackware base solid! With too much new technologies especially systemd, which wants to take over everything, many users will not want to change base. I understand the time and effort and duplication, and all, but why not do as a benevolent dicatator would do? Like Tomas from Slax, used to say, Slax is not meant to be installed, but if you want to you are on your own. If you want this desktop or that desktop you help and cooperate to get it there. We are not going to hold hands and there you go. People have to learn that you are a person and you cannot meet all their demands. It may not die, but it surely will never be the same and with that sYstemD stuff you can't see what is happening behind the scenes, people are not happy with that. Slax was slow did not update much, etc. This is why porteus was born it was slax-remix, now you can see what Tomas' went through and still people will never be happy. Just give them what you can and don't burnout. You are a person you do not have to do too much. People will not always be thankful for what you do. You cannot keep all people happy all of the time. I hope you can see some of the points that I am making.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#79 by brokenman » 12 Nov 2015, 03:01

and we can use to rescue/see/view/troubleshoot pcs throughout.
Still possible under Arch Porteus.

We have a porteus as we had our Slax it was our POCKET OS.
'had' is an interesting word you use for slax here. Why exactly do you use the word 'had'?
Arch Porteus is still a POCKET OS. Less than 200MB.

Packages were not problem at least for me.
You are an experienced user. They ARE a problem for many people. This is precisely why I wrote USM.

I waited for years to achieve a livecd with a custom tex ... I did not give up and succeded.
You are persistent. Many others are not. If they can't get their app to work on Porteus they move on. I have a feeling under Arch Porteus this would be a breeze. Getting docker to run on Porteus was a problem for me. 3 minutes later, I had it running on Arch Porteus.

What is the problem that we will not be able to have a livecd/usb like porteus is right now modular and apps can be added/deleted and customization
There is no problem. Nothing would change. It would be exactly the same format, only a different base. A new comer would not even realize they are using a different base.

especially systemd, which wants to take over everything, many users will not want to change base.
I hear this a lot. I am using it right now. Have done for a while. It is not as invasive as people that have never taken the time to use it think. Everybody has a right to their opinion. I just wish people would at least make an informed decision. Investigate it, use it and then decide. Most sheeple just follow the crowd and avoid it. I think these people will hop distros until there is nowhere left to hop eventually.

but why not do as a benevolent dicatator would do?
Because I am not a benevolent dictator. If I were, I would just change base and release it.

and with that sYstemD stuff you can't see what is happening behind the scenes
How so? Because it uses binaries? I am perfectly aware of every step it makes.

This is why porteus was born it was slax-remix
Yes. We have both been there since the beginning. Why was slax-remix born? Because development for slax stopped. Perhaps it was too much for one man. Part of the reason I want to move to Arch is so this doesn't happen. I can streamline work much easier, and the documentation for Arch is second to none. The decision I make will be based on having a maintainable future first and foremost.

I am listening to users, I am debating with users. I have made no forgone conclusions as yet. I like slackware. I have no strong feelings against systemd. What I am more interested in hearing is solutions and ideas instead of people just whining about how they love slackware and hate systemd. I have a lot of respect for you Tonio, as I do for many other long term Porteus users, but I can't make my life unworkable because of die hard slackware fans.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#80 by brokenman » 12 Nov 2015, 03:03

Perhaps time to grab a dingie... float... float... blub!
This is a little cryptic. Are you referring to Porteus drowning? I notice your profile says you are using debian. Interesting.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#81 by brokenman » 12 Nov 2015, 03:16

I hope to release an ISO this weekend so people can try it out and see if it is usable for them. I will then hold a poll to see what the majority thinks. All of this will impact the final decision. I will also know in a few weeks if my work situation will change which may afford me more free time. If I could work on Porteus full time (as in it made an income) I would be happy releasing both slackware and arch versions.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#82 by roadie » 12 Nov 2015, 04:58

brokenman wrote:I hope to release an ISO this weekend so people can try it out and see if it is usable for them. I will then hold a poll to see what the majority thinks. All of this will impact the final decision. I will also know in a few weeks if my work situation will change which may afford me more free time. If I could work on Porteus full time (as in it made an income) I would be happy releasing both slackware and arch versions.

I'll be happy to test the release....200ish meg beats the hell outa the 700ish Manjaro I tried today....with very little in it for that size. I've formed some thoughts from it and a couple of other Arch distros, the biggest complaint I have is pacman and it's refusal to do what I want it to do.....much like apt-get....and a lot of women....they just don't listen.

I have no opinion on systemd, I haven't looked at it at all....these Arch distros don't seem to boot very fast with systemd....could be my lil netbook though Porteus boots much faster....Porteus/Slitaz flies.

In any case, I await the release of Porteus/Arch....fair warning though.... it will be abused.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#83 by Tonio » 12 Nov 2015, 14:13

I have a lot of respect for you Tonio, as I do for many other long term Porteus users, but I can't make my life unworkable because of die hard slackware fans.
I also have a great deal of respect for you as well. Both you and fanthom rock!!! Thanks to your help, I was able to compile kertex on porteus and typeset beautiful documents on a portable usb drive/or a livecd. I customized it with many programs to typeset mathematics. I was able to use some slackbuilds and add some programs that help me in my classes.
What is the problem that we will not be able to have a livecd/usb like porteus is right now modular and apps can be added/deleted and customization
There is no problem. Nothing would change. It would be exactly the same format, only a different base. A new comer would not even realize they are using a different base.
This is where things differ, other distributions have different way of doing things, ie, how will the new devel module compare to the present one? Packages will be different there will no longer a /var/log/packages; A newcomer would not know about these changes :) Of course not. They are just finding out about a great system that will run their pcs.
I hear this a lot. I am using it right now. Have done for a while. It is not as invasive as people that have never taken the time to use it think.
A regular user, ie., a normal user which turns on their pc and see their computers boot up and run would not notice it; but an experienced system admin or developer who builds desktops will notice it and its intrusions. Newer programs depend on it and will not run or will run with many changes and *isms to get their desktops working. This is what will be avoided if you use Arch because it uses that by default and not waste time building desktops. I understand this and understand your frustrations.
I have no opinion on systemd, I haven't looked at it at all....these Arch distros don't seem to boot very fast with systemd....could be my lil netbook though Porteus boots much faster....Porteus/Slitaz flies.
I unfortunately have an opinion on systemd, and that it is not as fast as it was before. If you can find some resources online, I used Fedora and Fedora 20 booted faster than Fedora 22 and I skipped Fedora 21, they removed a readahed stuff that was replaced by some systemd* stuff.
I will put some links on another fellow that runs Fedora and tests new Red Hat Technology and his viewpoints on systemd

http://tomhorsley.com/game/systemd.html

and

http://tomhorsley.com/game/punch.html

He is a power user and he definitely knows what posts. I am not a newbie but not a power user as he is. Also users are invited to see the biggest myths refered to on one of previous pages:
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-b ... yths.html
arguing about the advantages and disadvantages of what does not understand
You are right on this one! I am a mere mortal and cant understand that pile of code called systemd :)
Peace to all.
Wish it were that simple! And like you pointed out religious wars and regime change prevalent in the world, wars for no apparent good reason other than to oppress people or 4 money. We donț like your president so lets put another person that we like in there[take a look at some countries in our world
today]. They are =@ in many places using drones instead of people. I agree friend. It is what it is; unfortunately :( .
it's refusal to do what I want it to do.....much like apt-get....and a lot of women....they just don't listen.
Very true roadie :) :D That is a problem we have. Just like the government in many countries too! :cry:

Now a bigger question to Brokenman. Will you release an x86_64 iso or an i686 one? Under 200 MB? or 300 MB? as you had previously discussed?

Da-svi-da-niya (Dasvidania)

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#84 by donald » 12 Nov 2015, 14:47

@brokenman
Well, Fanthom left Porteus and leaves a big gap. We will miss him ,i'm sure.
Now the workload is too much for only one Person (brokenman), agreed,.so you like to
hear some "solutions and ideas"..ok.

1.Don't try to be everyone's darling...8 DE's..why?.opt for 2.
((don't ask me "yeah but which"..(the most downloaded,popular or what ever)..make a decision).

In fact, it is your Life, your Time, be more selfish, do what you like to do and if you like, share it.
Provide a stable and secure OS (and security updates (bugfixes) if available), nothing more.

--> they couldn't get the application they wanted <--
--> For a newcomer, compiling a package is not on the cards <--
If the newest package version isn't in the Repo (upstream), bad luck but you are not responsible for that.
I did never understood why it's so important that even the dumbest "Joe" should be able to use porteus..

IMHO..stay with Slackware, lean back and wait for the next Release..
Have you not yet more / additional work with "nemesis"?..if it's (personally) interesting you ..ok..otherwise, why?..you may say that you will have less work in the future..I'm not convinced.

And I won't say anything about systemd.. :wink:
Last edited by donald on 12 Nov 2015, 15:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#85 by Tonio » 12 Nov 2015, 15:13

Igor wrote:@Tonio
I don't like our President too. I don't love him for his desire to retain power at any cost, for the war and indifference to human life, for lies and blood. I don't like our President because he was the obstacle to development, for the savagery and isolation of the country from the civilized world. But I did not choose our President. The President and his policies chosen by people clinging to old, for the illusion of stability, fear of change and anything new, unwilling to take responsibility for themselves and their lives who want to blame their failures on the whole world. In our country such people are still the majority. And how many of these on the forum? So let's not act like reactionaries and conservatives, will open a new way, we will develop and improve Porteus, to learn from others and adopt best practices. Будьте здоровы!
No, I was not saying that I did not like President Putin, on the contrary I think he is a great leader more than we have in USA :( :oops: I was saying that the people which rule the world are oppressing others, and if they do not like a person, they try to remove him/her and install a puppet someone that they can manipulate. There are some examples like Saddam Hussein[Iraq] and Quadafi[Libya]. This is not right, but until someone stops them from imposing their will on other people instead of letting them live in peace and like you say adopt best practices. :wink: :good: They kill innocent people, also take a look in Gaza and @Israel, etc. The mainstream media, TV and others are pushing stuff to keep the people from opening their eyes
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/11 ... oney.html
https://larouchepac.com/20151112/putin ... rmageddon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lzy5_V360k


@Donald
Well said! Thats sums up what I tried to say in most of my posts. But if the direction is arch then so it is and we will not hinder progress as Igor proposes, but help and support Brokenmans decision.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#86 by Blaze » 12 Nov 2015, 16:41

donald wrote:Well, Fanthom left Porteus and leaves a big gap.
Why Fanthom is leave Porteus???
Russia is not Putin. Porteus is not Slackware.
Putin is a normal guy, but carelessness, corruption, theft, stupid officials and bribed government - is ruining Russia.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#87 by Tonio » 12 Nov 2015, 16:57

Zdra-stvu-eetee
Fanthom will concentrate his efforts more on Kiosk Edition[Gentoo based] rather than regular Porteus.
but carelessness, corruption, theft, stupid officials and bribed government - is ruining Russia.
Not only Russia, but the rest of the world. With power in the hands of the 1% and the rest of the 99%ers running like sheeple following along. Russia is a great country, but that theft, and corruption are mostly everywhere because the bad guys cannot be stopped :( Pa-Ka

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#88 by donald » 12 Nov 2015, 17:09

@Blaze
First post, first sentence:
As of December, due to other commitments, Fanthom will officially be leaving 'Porteus Desktop Edition' in the capacity of maintainer... :cry:

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#89 by francois » 12 Nov 2015, 17:48

You are right Igor, peace to us all, even though the opinions could differ.

I hope that the decision of the community will be based on an informed decision. It would be fair that members give a sincere try to nemesis before voting, being able to come with pros and cons about that possible venture. Porteus came from slackware, but is really more than slackware and system V. The community decision should come from experimentation, reason and wisdom, and not on the basis of emotions mainly.

@tonio:
I unfortunately have an opinion on systemd, and that it is not as fast as it was before. If you can find some resources online, I used Fedora and Fedora 20 booted faster than Fedora 22 and I skipped Fedora 21
This might be due to other factors than systemd. Nemesis boots as fast as porteus if not faster, it behaves better on my old laptop in terms of managing the demands of the different programs.

However, to be objective some real tests will have to be performed comparing the two oses with the same programs before coming with any sound conclusions.

In addition Tonio, I have much respect and even friendship for you, as much as these Linux forum could provide, which could be really surprising.

However, I will not use the argument don't count on me if the Linux base does not change. One thing I will assert though is that I am looking for important changes. Activity is dying in this forum.

Edited now.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#90 by roadie » 12 Nov 2015, 17:54

francois wrote:You are right Igor, peace to us all, even though the opinions could differ.

I hope that the decision of the community will be based on an informed decision. It would be fair that members give a sincere try to nemesis before voting, being able to come with pros and cons about that possible venture. Porteus came from slackware, but is really more than slackware and system V. The community decision should come from experimentation, reason and wisdom, and not on the basis of emotions mainly.
But Linux, and the distro of choice, is a very emotional subject. It's quite evident...even on the Arch forums. :)

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