Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

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datruche
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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#16 by datruche » 01 Feb 2016, 00:44

> (brokenman) To preempt a potentially explosive situation I want to be crystal clear. I have said it before but you insist on doing it your way. I don't recommend, nor support upgrades of the alpha versions.

That's what I mean: make it clear in a sticky post, login message --or wait for more trouble & time wasted.
BTW end of my phrase _please_: "I use Nemesis as my *working* OS on one of my boxes: IMO the best way to test a software is to *use* it real-life."

>>> (brokenman) Once you are happy with the updates you can merge these 27 modules into one.
>> (datruche user) First maj XZM is 109 MiB. How much RAM, room and processing power will it takes to merge a couple of them, so that we get an idea about Nemesis minimal hardware requirements (*)?
> brokenman) I don't fully understand the question.

Well, how much room does it take to unpack a 100 MiB module, let alone the others to merge with?

>> (Ed_p) Oh, I don't like the sounds of this at all. Our 300 MB systems rapidly growing to 3 GB systems and up. Good bye USB installs.
> Can you still buy USB devices under 4Gb?

Why "buying"? Maybe he/many have sparse usb stick to use.

> brokenman: Look, If your expecting a mature OS with a set spec sheet and a clear long term plan (...)

Uh uh; but foresee whether it will fit on my SDHC, be fine on my spouse old 1GB netbooks, and on the nowhere-close-to high end PCs at the associations I planned to propose it for (@ aus9: not with KDE) : yes with due respect I expect that from any software, especialy foss. And this must be planned early. According to the reviews and messages I'm not the only guy arround using and fell in love/need with Porteus, for the ability it give us to bring back low-pro configs into efficient and polished systems with litle sysadmin maintenance needed.

That was it for the discussion, back to the core of subject;following is a summary of all what I got on the Porteus development release "Nemesis" maintenance.

* Updates
(note: often required to install new software)

Install with pacman (i.e. no modules; will be kept in 'changes', where newer versions will replace the previous ones)

* New applications

Depends if you want them
1. Modular --> Install with pman
2. Integrated --> with pacman.

Open questions

- Can I use the modules built before a system update / after updating the OS?
?? Depends.

E.g. after installing Nemesis 3.5, keeping ONLY MY HOME FOLDER from 3.4:

Some apps run, mostly CLI. Other won't run; request some libraries, e.g. xombrero (ultra lightweight webkit secure browser):

Code: Select all

[kozaki@porteus]$ mousepad &
$ mousepad: error while loading shared libraries: libgtksourceview-2.0.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

[kozaki@porteus]$ xombrero: error while loading shared libraries: libharfbuzz-icu.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
I then unactivated the "old" modules (I think I did though maybe not for all) and tried to update the system.

1/ $ sudo pman -Syu

Code: Select all

[sudo] password for kozaki:
error: duplicated database entry 'acpid'
error: duplicated database entry 'libsecret'
:: Starting full system upgrade...
resolving dependencies...
looking for conflicting packages...
warning: dependency cycle detected:
warning: eudev will be installed before its eudev-systemdcompat dependency

Packages (76) acpid-2.0.26-1  adwaita-icon-theme-3.18.0-1  avahi-0.6.32rc-4
              ca-certificates-mozilla-3.21-1  cdrtools-3.02a05-1  consolekit-1.0.1-2
              dcadec-0.2.0-1  device-mapper-2.02.138-1  dhcpcd-6.10.0-1  elfutils-0.165-1
              eudev-3.1.5-3  eudev-systemdcompat-228-1  ffmpeg-1:2.8.5-2  fuse-2.9.5-1
              gmp-6.1.0-3  gnupg-2.1.10-3  gnutls-3.4.8-1  graphite-1:1.3.5-1
              gsm-1.0.14-1  gtk-update-icon-cache-3.18.6-2  gtk3-3.18.6-2
              harfbuzz-1.1.3-1  inxi-2.2.32-1  iso-codes-3.64-1  libass-0.13.1-1
              libbsd-0.8.1-1  libdrm-2.4.66-1  libelf-0.165-1  libevdev-1.4.6-1
              libldap-2.4.43-1  libnm-glib-1.0.10-2  libnotify-0.7.6-2  libpulse-8.0-1
              libsecret-0.18.4-1  libteam-1.23-1  libwbclient-4.3.4-1  libwebp-0.5.0-1
              llvm-libs-3.7.1-1  mesa-11.1.1-1  mhwd-db-0.5.6-9  mpfr-3.1.3.p5-1
              nano-2.5.1-1  network-manager-applet-1.0.10-1
              networkmanager-consolekit-1.0.10-2  networkmanager-openvpn-1.0.9-1
             nm-connection-editor-1.0.10-1  nspr-4.11-1  nss-3.21-1  ntp-4.2.8.p5-1
              openrc-0.20.4-1  openssh-7.1p2-1  opus-1.1.2-1  p11-kit-0.23.2-1
              pacman-mirrorlist-20160108-1  pamac-2.4.3-5  pciutils-3.4.0-1  perl-5.22.1-1
              python-packaging-16.0-1  python-pyparsing-2.0.7-1
              python-setuptools-1:19.5-1  python-six-1.10.0-1  rp-pppoe-3.12-1
              rsync-3.1.2-1  rtmpdump-1:2.4.r96.fa8646d-1  smbclient-4.3.4-1
              sqlite-3.10.2-1  vim-7.4.1089-1  vim-runtime-7.4.1089-1  vte-common-0.42.1-2
              vte3-0.42.1-2  wpa_supplicant-1:2.5-2  xf86-input-evdev-2.10.1-1
              xf86-video-r128-6.10.1-0.1  xfsprogs-4.3.0-1  xorg-xrdb-1.1.0-2  xterm-322-1

Total Download Size:    97.28 MiB
Total Installed Size:  430.86 MiB
Net Upgrade Size:       29.38 MiB

:: Proceed with installation? [Y/n]
Y

...
(76/76) checking keys in keyring                                              [############################################] 100%
(76/76) checking package integrity                                            [############################################] 100%
(76/76) loading package files                                                 [############################################] 100%
(76/76) checking for file conflicts                                           [############################################] 100%
        error: failed to commit transaction (conflicting files)
        dcadec: /usr/lib/libdcadec.so.0 exists in filesystem
        libsecret: /usr/share/locale/fa/LC_MESSAGES/libsecret.mo exists in filesystem
        Errors occurred, no packages were upgraded.
2/ $ sudo pacman -Su

Code: Select all

<SNIP>
adwaita-icon-theme: /usr/share/icons/Adwaita/scalable/status/weather-storm-symbolic.svg exists in filesystem
adwaita-icon-theme: /usr/share/pkgconfig/adwaita-icon-theme.pc exists in filesystem
pciutils: /usr/lib/libpci.so.3.4.0 exists in filesystem
libbsd: /usr/lib/libbsd.so.0.8.1 exists in filesystem
libevdev: /usr/lib/libevdev.so.2.1.12 exists in filesystem
nss: /usr/lib/libgtest1.so exists in filesystem
libsecret: /usr/share/locale/fa/LC_MESSAGES/libsecret.mo exists in filesystem
libteam: /usr/lib/libteam.so.5.3.3 exists in filesystem
<SNIP>
<SNIP>
python-setuptools: /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/setuptools/ssl_support.py exists in filesystem
python-setuptools: /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/setuptools/unicode_utils.py exists in filesystem
python-setuptools: /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/setuptools/utils.py exists in filesystem
python-setuptools: /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/setuptools/version.py exists in filesystem
python-setuptools: /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/setuptools/windows_support.py exists in filesystem
Errors occurred, no packages were upgraded.


Maybe it's alpha, maybe I am beta, either way there's room for improvment :D

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#17 by francois » 01 Feb 2016, 00:58

@aus9:

Under porteus kde came with a basic array of packages that takes more place than xfce but not so much. It depended on fanthom's selection. However, all the additonal packages whether unde kde or xfce, unless being trimmed could amount to much depending on the packages. This is why I work with linux filesystem. There is no need for .dat container which if not enough large will have to be expanded. Linux works better with linux filesystem, .dat is for windows newcomers, we want them to feel at home until they decide to switch.
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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#18 by brokenman » 01 Feb 2016, 02:24

yes with due respect I expect that from any software, especialy foss.
It will come. But only when we settle on a base and mature a little. Once direction is chosen I will do my best to schedule releases.
Uh uh; but foresee whether it will fit on my SDHC.
How big is your SDHC?
be fine on my spouse old 1GB netbooks, and on the nowhere-close-to high end PCs at the associations I planned to propose it for
You are going to propose the same alpha system that I don't recommend you use for work at home to an association? :shock: Hopefully you mean after it matures.
Why "buying"? Maybe he/many have sparse usb stick to use.
To give more of an idea, I have a CF card from 10 years ago (512M) that still works. Nemesis will run from this.
Can I use the modules built before a system update / after updating the OS?
Yes. If they are in your modules folder they will be 'on top' of any installed package.
E.g. after installing Nemesis 3.5, keeping ONLY MY HOME FOLDER from 3.4:
Some apps run, mostly CLI. Other won't run; request some libraries, e.g. xombrero (ultra lightweight webkit secure browser):
How did you install xombrero? Using: pman -S xombrero ?
The answer to your 'existing packages' dilemma has been posted elsewhere. I also would of thought someone with years of arch experience would know how to find the answer. You can use the --force option.
How do i become super user?
Wear your underpants on the outside and put on a cape.

datruche
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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#19 by datruche » 01 Feb 2016, 16:15

brokenman wrote:How big is your SDHC?
7 + 8 GiB for systems + data. Made the sdb1 large as i was in the blue and wished to avoid reformat (I'd use LVM on a disk). But that is for my use only; let's widen a bit as per this thread's objective.
You are going to propose the same alpha system that I don't recommend you use for work at home to an association? :shock: Hopefully you mean after it matures.
Tested Porteus current by using it a few months; now using the development release; i dunno how logical it seems though that's the way I go before installing an OS for SO else.
>>Why "buying"? Maybe he/many have sparse usb stick to use.
To give more of an idea, I have a CF card from 10 years ago (512M) that still works. Nemesis will run from this.
until one needs to update it (or in kiosk, ehh maybe that's the way to go for [url= viewtopic.php?f=81&t=5352 the audience i'm testing Porteus for[/url]
> Can I use the modules built before a system update / after updating the OS?
> E.g. after installing Nemesis 3.5, keeping ONLY MY HOME FOLDER from 3.4:
Some apps run, mostly CLI. Other won't run; request some libraries, e.g. xombrero (ultra lightweight webkit secure browser):

Yes. If they are in your modules folder they will be 'on top' of any installed package.
How did you install xombrero? Using: pman -S xombrero ?
yes via pman -S -> bu,dle.xzm. reinstalled and same libraries issue. Which lead us to:
The answer to your 'existing packages' dilemma has been posted elsewhere. I also would of thought someone with years of arch experience would know how to find the answer. You can use the --force option.
Let's say I do; will other testers know too? or quicly find this bit of required info as Nemesis does not ship man pacman? Please note I'm putting my efforts on writting a memo that summarize for everyone how to manage (and therefore test) Nemesis with some efficiency. the 'pacman --force' switch may be unknown to quite a few.
I'm being transparent on Porteus evolution
For those who've read all the infos that are scattered in the forum and remember them all mayne. Yet some of the first-level technical info has yet to surface or be written to help test the distro. That's what my own test and other comments/feedbacks reveal, eg in his thread. By donald, Ed_p, francois,
beny wrote:hi remeber that nemesis is a read only system,not a rolling release,maybe you have to choose what you have to upgrade or not.
E.g. some packages I installed with pman show up when i boot Nemesis Fresh; pacman won't uninstall it, even after reinstalled with pacman . I'm unable to launch xombrero, after rebooting Fresh, pacman -Syu --force (second one did work), uninstalling all xombrero dependancies then pman -S xombrero-bundle.xzm activate :O:

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#20 by roadie » 01 Feb 2016, 17:30

@datruche

You are going to propose the same alpha system that I don't recommend you use for work at home to an association? :shock: Hopefully you mean after it matures.

Tested Porteus current by using it a few months; now using the development release; i dunno how logical it seems though that's the way I go before installing an OS for SO else.

Proposing the use of an experimental release to an association is not only illogical, it's also irresponsible.

Let's say I do; will other testers know too? or quicly find this bit of required info as Nemesis does not ship man pacman? Please note I'm putting my efforts on writting a memo that summarize for everyone how to manage (and therefore test) Nemesis with some efficiency. the 'pacman --force' switch may be unknown to quite a few.

Porteus/Nemesis doesn't ship with man pages, the idea being to keep things light. From the beginning of Nemesis, the suggestion has been to use the very excellent Arch wikis.

E.g. some packages I installed with pman show up when i boot Nemesis Fresh; pacman won't uninstall it, even after reinstalled with pacman . I'm unable to launch xombrero, after rebooting Fresh, pacman -Syu --force (second one did work), uninstalling all xombrero dependancies then pman -S xombrero-bundle.xzm activate :O:

If packages you installed are showing up on booting in Always Fresh mode, then you're not in Always Fresh mode....it's no different to standard Porteus. Possibly, you need to refresh your knowledge of how Porteus works?

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#21 by beny » 01 Feb 2016, 18:11

hi pacman -Syu is very powerfull,but for an everyday use i think yaourt and aur are the problem solved for software that you need,with an arch lts kernel you have a lot of choice, with abs too, so brokenman have to add at pman.config this possibility,btw user have to know what version have to build for...

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#22 by datruche » 01 Feb 2016, 18:58

roadie wrote:@datruche

Proposing the use of an experimental release to an association is not only illogical, it's also irresponsible.
Oh man! Testin the upcoming release of a system I'm advising non-techies to use, let you see some knowleddge on what they'll get when they'll update. It's standard procedure and in any way more future proof than crossing your fingers. Would have guessed it not so hard to get. Sure you'd need to first experiment and learn from your initial "fails" like I did for over ten years.
Let's say I do; will other testers know too? or quicly find this bit of required info as Nemesis does not ship man pacman? Please note I'm putting my efforts on writting a memo that summarize for everyone how to manage (and therefore test) Nemesis with some efficiency. the 'pacman --force' switch may be unknown to quite a few.

Porteus/Nemesis doesn't ship with man pages, the idea being to keep things light. From the beginning of Nemesis, the suggestion has been to use the very excellent Arch wikis.
Let's ask Porteus users on this. Then distro leaders will know whether to summarize basic instructions in a couple of sticky posts which is the reason of this post, is such a wrong idea.
E.g. some packages I installed with pman show up when i boot Nemesis Fresh; pacman won't uninstall it, even after reinstalled with pacman . I'm unable to launch xombrero, after rebooting Fresh, pacman -Syu --force (second one did work), uninstalling all xombrero dependancies then pman -S xombrero-bundle.xzm activate :O:
If packages you installed are showing up on booting in Always Fresh mode, then you're not in Always Fresh mode....it's no different to standard Porteus. Possibly, you need to refresh your knowledge of how Porteus works?
First yes I'm always ready to deepen my knowldge of Porteus. And of Nemesis. Second if this is not Fresh then what does it boot dear M Professor?

Code: Select all

LABEL NEMESIS-fresh-test
          MENU LABEL Always Fresh v3.5
          KERNEL vmlinuz_v3.5
          APPEND from=/porteus/nemesis initrd=initrd_v3.5.xz changes=/mnt/sdb2 nomagic base_only norootcopy timezone=Europe/Zurich utc volume=80%
Note on creating modules:

`pman -S` in Fresh and Copy2ram modes won't create modules but will act as pure pacman.

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#23 by beny » 01 Feb 2016, 19:08

hi the always fresh option load the system without the changes directory,it is like a debug way to search issue on system,you have changes=/mnt/sdb2 on your boot line,maybe i am wrong but changes seem loaded.

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#24 by datruche » 01 Feb 2016, 19:19

That's true, cheatcode doc on 'boot_only' says nothing about not loading 'changes'.

Means creating modules in FM vs Normal could lead to different results. That's a point vs updating the alpha OS via pacman then.

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#25 by beny » 01 Feb 2016, 19:22

hi this is the original boot line for:
LABEL fresh
MENU LABEL Always Fresh
KERNEL vmlinuz
APPEND initrd=initrd.xz nomagic base_only norootcopy
TEXT HELP
Normally Nemesis saves all changes
to the /porteus/changes/ directory
on the boot media (if writable)
and restores them next boot.
Use this option to start a fresh
system, changes are not read from
or written to any device
ENDTEXT

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#26 by francois » 02 Feb 2016, 03:12

@datruche:
changes are loaded this means that this is not ALWAYS FRESH

ALWAYS FRESH is a only label. Per definition on an always fresh menu entry there should never be changes=/path-to-changes.

There is manpower shortage here on the forum. This is why things do not get documented as they should. Sadly this is a small distribution.
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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#27 by roadie » 02 Feb 2016, 06:09

datruche wrote:That's true, cheatcode doc on 'boot_only' says nothing about not loading 'changes'.

Means creating modules in FM vs Normal could lead to different results. That's a point vs updating the alpha OS via pacman then.

I haven't looked at the cheatcodes, but I really don't see why it should be written in that you can't use changes with Always Fresh.

To me, at least, 'changes' implies changes....something different than a pristine Porteus/Nemesis system. It seems self evident to me.....if I have 'changes' on a boot command line, things will be different. I just can't blame this on the lack of mention in the cheatcode doc. What else should be mentioned?

How many pages of documentation, that most people never read, will be enough to make it foolproof?

Maybe it should be setup that Porteus/Nemesis reads the boot command line, and if it parses 'changes', along with 'Always Fresh', it will shut down right now and self destruct...to save the user from harming themselves, or destroying the world..or something.

Making suggestions is good, it's welcome.....but make suggestions based on an understanding of the system that you're dealing with. And don't blame things on cheatcodes.

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#28 by datruche » 02 Feb 2016, 12:27

Roadie, as per this thread's subject, the goal is a better understanding of the diffs betwen going pman or pacman for sys updates. You're right guys about Fresh (my bad) now we can use CopytoRam with 'changes', can we?If so going pman or pacman can lead to different results.

Also there's 'update-porteus' which requires to boot with CopytoRam. therefore IMHO the question looks legitimate, and you may want to help documenting it for (new) testers, or to crush it...

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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#29 by francois » 03 Feb 2016, 00:16

Copytoram is only a cheatcode, the same as changes. You can use it under the menu entry labels called graphic and text mode in addition to copytoram mode menu entry. Please read our documentation or FAQ. The documentation pertinent for cheatcodes is up to date.

Porteus is officially provided with the syslinux boot loader. But we support gracefully other bootloaders. There are infinite declinations possible under a bootloader, multiply this by the different type of bootloaders: grub legacy, grub2, grub4dos... :wink:

Get used with the official porteus. Under official porteus you have slackware modules (porteus), but you can also install slackware packages directly. Nemesis pretends to the same structure.

Please datruche enlighth us with your arch linux wise mind. :twisted:
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Re: Update method of choice: Porteus vs Arch way?

Post#30 by datruche » 03 Feb 2016, 02:01

@francois thanks for lecturing us on the available GNU/Linux bootloaders in an thread that exists to document pman (if in the FAQ then show us the way) :lol: BTW here's the Copy2tam entry from default Nemesis 3.5:

Code: Select all

LABEL copy2ram
MENU LABEL Copy To RAM
KERNEL vmlinuz
APPEND initrd=initrd.xz copy2ram
Also you're missing the whole point of this thread. Created it to give us testers a clear way on how to update and add applications to the distro in a reliable way. More precisely an understanding of whether using pacman (the package manager at the core of a *rolling* distro since 2002 with hundreds of comits a year) or pman (a pacman wrapper brokenman is coding to use a modular and hopefully stable Porteus), and for what consequences. As the Porteus Desktop dev is busy lurking monokinis coming from the beach errr ;) testing and building the next release + interacting on the forum, it's up to us beta testers to build the doc little by little.


@all: Maybe you see this whole update point as a detail. Then whether you know things well over what I know, or you're not using Nemesis on a real-world basis, having issues with packages, modules and missing libs aaaall day long.

If the former, why don't you share, answering these few questions that's ease Porteus development release "Nemesis"'s maintenance for less knowledgeable guys & lads?

* Update Nemesis please correct or improve
(note: often required to install new software)

Depends if you want them
1. Modular --> Install with pman: can be activated in all boot modes and must be activated to use further built modules. Take room.
2. Integrated --> with pacman: will only be available with the 'changes' boot code, and not in Fresh. Replace the older version = take less room.

3. How to use 'update-porteus' (helper script to update porteus kernel and/or modules with the latest from the porteus server)?

* Installing new applications please correct/improve

Depends if you want them
1. Modular --> Install with pman; can be activated whatever the boot mode you choose.
2. Integrated --> with pacman. Won't be available without the 'changes' boot code, and not in Fresh.

3. Can I use the modules built before a system update / after updating the OS?
?? Depends.
brokenman wrote:Yes. If they are in your modules folder they will be 'on top' of any installed package.
Not necessarily after we update the OS (dependencies hell probable but please correct if I'm wrong).
Last edited by datruche on 03 Feb 2016, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.

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