The future of Porteus

New features which should be implemented in Porteus; suggestions are welcome. All questions or problems with testing releases (alpha, beta, or rc) should go in their relevant thread here, rather than the Bug Reports section.
killermenpl
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#256 by killermenpl » 27 Jan 2016, 10:55

I'll ask again, because no one answered last time (Thank you aus9 for moving to correct place).

Why change from Slackware to Arch? I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm just curious what are the benefits of changing to Arch. For me it's just more work to get to where Slackware Porteus is right now.

I've noticed the new package manager, but I don't think it would be that difficult to make a new package manager for Porteus that would have the same features (downloading packages and automatically converting to .xzm)

Again, I'm not hating Nemesis, I just don't see the point of it.

aus9

Re: The future of Porteus

Post#257 by aus9 » 27 Jan 2016, 13:16

For me it's just more work to get to where Slackware Porteus is right now.
Have you considered just how much is involved in trying to stay with Slackware. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in posting in the other forum but please, others have expressed some concerns you have raised but not all members feel the same as you. And brokenman has dealt with those issues. I am not here to speak on his behalf but its very difficult to try and maintain Slackware base. He is only one human.

I am not sure based on quoted box if English is your first language but the wording is slightly insulting. If I was to take you at your word....you have tested Nemesis but refused to do any bug reports and found it difficult to get to where you feel comfort as per old Porteus. Since you are human too.....I will grant you one extra doubt.

We need more testers, so think positive! If you really did test Nemesis pop over and do some kind of review of what you found difficult in the v 3.5 bug report.

If on the other hand, you never tested Nemesis or refuse to report any bugs....have the courage to read all 18 pages and don't repeat a question that in most was answered on page one. There are 2 package managers for Nemesis, pacman and pman and pman makes modules.

:beer:

Nemesis test of wireless module FYI

Code: Select all

sudo modprobe mt7601u
[sudo] password for guest: 
guest ~ $ lsmod | grep mt*
mt7601u                40000  0
mac80211              235648  1 mt7601u
cfg80211              149992  2 mac80211,mt7601u

killermenpl
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#258 by killermenpl » 27 Jan 2016, 13:58

aus9 wrote:Have you considered just how much is involved in trying to stay with Slackware
I'll be completely honest: I have absolutely no idea which is more difficult. If I were in brokenman's boots I would rather try and stick with what I know and built on what is currently working instead of redoing everything again.
aus9 wrote:I am not sure based on quoted box if English is your first language but the wording is slightly insulting.
I'm from Poland and English is my second language. Sorry if I sounded insulting. That was not my intention. It was actually the opposite of what I wanted to sound like.
aus9 wrote:If I was to take you at your word....you have tested Nemesis but refused to do any bug reports and found it difficult to get to where you feel comfort as per old Porteus.
I installed Nemesis on my USB stick for testing. I booted it up for a quick test if it even works for me (not every Linux distro works on my PC and I have no idea why). I like how Wi-Fi works without any extra configuration. It misses some of the old Porteus features, like the settings centre and changes.dat creator, but I'm sure they will be added later.
aus9 wrote:We need more testers, so think positive!
While I was writing this I didn't have any strong feelings in any direction. I was just curious about the reasoning behind switching to Arch, that's all. I think I'm going to be using Nemesis as soon as I figure out how to make it save changes without having to format my USB stick in ext4.
aus9 wrote:There are 2 package managers for Nemesis, pacman and pman and pman makes modules.
Can you explain why are there two package managers? Is it just that pman is a wrapper for pacman that makes modules automatically or is it completely separate and pacman is there only for when pman doesn't work?

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#259 by Ed_P » 27 Jan 2016, 15:14

killermenpl wrote:
aus9 wrote:Have you considered just how much is involved in trying to stay with Slackware
I'll be completely honest: I have absolutely no idea which is more difficult. If I were in brokenman's boots I would rather try and stick with what I know and built on what is currently working instead of redoing everything again.
I agree. It is easier to fix a car than build a new one. Same can be said for a house, a road, a toilet, etc.
aus9 wrote:I am not sure based on quoted box if English is your first language but the wording is slightly insulting.
I'm from Poland and English is my second language. Sorry if I sounded insulting.
I wasn't insulted. And I suspect most others here weren't either. You were openly expressing an opinion and that is, and should be, desirable.
aus9 wrote:If I was to take you at your word....you have tested Nemesis but refused to do any bug reports and found it difficult to get to where you feel comfort as per old Porteus.
I installed Nemesis on my USB stick for testing. I booted it up for a quick test if it even works for me (not every Linux distro works on my PC and I have no idea why). I like how Wi-Fi works without any extra configuration. It misses some of the old Porteus features, like the settings centre and changes.dat creator, but I'm sure they will be added later.
When nemesis gets out of its alpha stage I am sure that will happen.
While I was writing this I didn't have any strong feelings in any direction. I was just curious about the reasoning behind switching to Arch, that's all. I think I'm going to be using Nemesis as soon as I figure out how to make it save changes without having to format my USB stick in ext4.
Not sure what version of nemesis you used but 3.5 saves changes, on FAT format drives using the changes= cheatcode. You can use the Savefile Manager in 3.1 Porteus to create the save.dat file.
Can you explain why are there two package managers? Is it just that pman is a wrapper for pacman that makes modules automatically
That appears to be the case.
Ed

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#260 by Bogomips » 27 Jan 2016, 17:41

Ed_P wrote:
aus9 wrote:I am not sure based on quoted box if English is your first language but the wording is slightly insulting.
killermenpl wrote:I'm from Poland and English is my second language. Sorry if I sounded insulting.
I wasn't insulted. And I suspect most others here weren't either. You were openly expressing an opinion and that is, and should be, desirable
. Thought I was missing something there. Tried to find the insult, and I could not. Only thing I could think of that could be taken as an insult, was the slightly critical attitude towards Nemesis. No, killermenpl as far as English is concerned you are doing just fine. No need to apologise. :beer:
Linux porteus 4.4.0-porteus #3 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jan 23 07:01:55 UTC 2016 i686 AMD Sempron(tm) 140 Processor AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
NVIDIA Corporation C61 [GeForce 6150SE nForce 430] (rev a2) MemTotal: 901760 kB MemFree: 66752 kB

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#261 by roadie » 27 Jan 2016, 17:59

@killermenpl
Can you explain why are there two package managers? Is it just that pman is a wrapper for pacman that makes modules automatically or is it completely separate and pacman is there only for when pman doesn't work?
To clear up any confusion, pman is not a package manager, it is a wrapper for pacman which is the package manager. Pman uses pacman to download packages, but then converts them to an xzm module and moves them to your modules directory. It makes things easier for you.

If, for some reason, pman isn't working, you can still get packages with pacman

I found nothing insulting in your post....not sure what thats about.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#262 by roadie » 27 Jan 2016, 18:12

@Ed_P
I agree. It is easier to fix a car than build a new one. Same can be said for a house, a road, a toilet, etc.
I have to say I'm a bit surprised to see this...there's not a lot to 'fix' in Porteus, but the release shedule doesn't hold a candle to Arch. Slackware releases 'when it's ready'....maybe a year, maybe 2 years. Porteus can't release until Slackware does. Now, I'm fine with that as I have pretty basic needs, but the majority wants the newest and the shiniest, they don't want to wait 2 years for a new release.

And, we've already thrashed the problem of keeping 8 desktops under Slackware...can't be done with one maintainer.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#263 by donald » 27 Jan 2016, 18:53

^
maybe a year, maybe 2 years. Porteus can't release until Slackware does.
I couldn't care less about having the latest version of the kernel or whatever program.
If it's not for Bug/Security fixes I would never bother upgrading my system...
..seems I'm getting old...(wise?)

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#264 by killermenpl » 27 Jan 2016, 19:02

roadie wrote:@killermenpl
Can you explain why are there two package managers? Is it just that pman is a wrapper for pacman that makes modules automatically or is it completely separate and pacman is there only for when pman doesn't work?
To clear up any confusion, pman is not a package manager, it is a wrapper for pacman which is the package manager. Pman uses pacman to download packages, but then converts them to an xzm module and moves them to your modules directory. It makes things easier for you.

If, for some reason, pman isn't working, you can still get packages with pacman

I found nothing insulting in your post....not sure what thats about.
Thanks! that's exactly what I wanted to know.
Bogomips wrote:No, killermenpl as far as English is concerned you are doing just fine
Thanks!
Ed_P wrote:Not sure what version of nemesis you used but 3.5 saves changes, on FAT format drives using the changes= cheatcode. You can use the Savefile Manager in 3.1 Porteus to create the save.dat file.
I'll try this tommorow. Right now I have another USB stick formatted in ext3 with Nemesis on it. I would leave it like that if I didn't have to use the stick in school.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#265 by roadie » 27 Jan 2016, 19:03

donald wrote:^
maybe a year, maybe 2 years. Porteus can't release until Slackware does.
I couldn't care less about having the latest version of the kernel or whatever program.
If it's not for Bug/Security fixes I would never bother upgrading my system...
..seems I'm getting old...(wise?)

I agree donald, there's really nothing new I need that Porteus doesn't cover....though Nemesis is fun to play with and it's opened some doors for me.

I've been old for quite a while.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#266 by Ed_P » 27 Jan 2016, 19:23

roadie wrote:I have to say I'm a bit surprised to see this...there's not a lot to 'fix' in Porteus,
I agree, that's why fixing it will take less time. The primary fixes, in my mind, being kernel updates to handle more hardware. I got a new notebook for Christmas, Porteus didn't work on it. The 3.5 version didn't either.
Porteus can't release until Slackware does. Now, I'm fine with that as I have pretty basic needs,
Apparently I do also, and others here.
but the majority wants the newest and the shiniest, they don't want to wait 2 years for a new release.
That's fine, let the majority use a major Linux release like Ubuntu. Or Arch if that fits their taste.
donald wrote:
maybe a year, maybe 2 years. Porteus can't release until Slackware does.
I couldn't care less about having the latest version of the kernel or whatever program.
If it's not for Bug/Security fixes I would never bother upgrading my system...
Bug/security fixes and additional hardware support. Newer equipment and some older equipment.
donald wrote:..seems I'm getting old...(wise?)
roadie wrote:I've been old for quite a while.
Kids today, always complaining. :D
Ed

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#267 by brokenman » 27 Jan 2016, 21:36

Please read through the entire thread, or at least the first three pages to understand the reasons behind switching base. It seems some people still don't get why, and that's understandable if you are looking at it from the point of view of one user, being you.
but I don't think it would be that difficult to make a new package manager for Porteus that would have the same features (downloading packages and automatically converting to .xzm)
I can tell you have never tried to write a package manager. It involves more than you may think. Add to that the server side scripts that need to work in tandem with the client side package manager and you have quite a task. Now add 5 different repositories to the mix, sometimes using different file and path names. Don't forget dependency resolution while you are there.
Again, I'm not hating Nemesis, I just don't see the point of it.
That's fine. I understand that. I can't make people see from my point of view, so for the most part I have stopped trying. I couldn't see the point of automatic cars at first. Why change to something more expensive that does the work for me?
I agree. It is easier to fix a car than build a new one. Same can be said for a house, a road, a toilet, etc.
Again, you are looking at this from the view of a user, that doesn`t have to build (and maintain) said car, house, toilet. They just receive this new distro and start using it. From my point of view, I would rather build a new car while keeping the future in my mind, so that I never have to touch that car again. It will run forever without my minimal intervention. Wouldn't that be more favourable (from my point of view) than fixing that old car you spoke of, again, and again and then again when some broken part gets upgraded. Have you any idea at all of the amount of work involved? Believe me when I say that if you could invest the time to build something from the ground up, with the intention of minimizing workload in the future, you should do it. That applies to a house, car or toilet.

I couldn't care less about having the latest version of the kernel or whatever program.
Fair enough. You have the right to that mindset as a user. However I have seen again and again on this forum people coming with new hardware that doesn't work with two year old kernels and Xorg packages. There are currently at least three threads about this very problem. As maintainer I have to think about other people.

That's fine, let the majority use a major Linux release like Ubuntu. Or Arch if that fits their taste.
Hang on, isn't being a little one sided? Much like ignoring people who choose to boot into a root account? Where would ANY distro be if they said to the MAJORITY of users .... "F$*K you This works for me and thats all I care about. Go elsewhere."

In short, try just a little to think from a different point of view. I am thinking from a point of view of reconstructing something, designing a system with a single goal in mind. To minimize future maintenance so that I can sustain the workload for a prolonged period. Burning out is another option I guess.
How do i become super user?
Wear your underpants on the outside and put on a cape.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#268 by roadie » 27 Jan 2016, 21:43

@Ed_P
That's fine, let the majority use a major Linux release like Ubuntu. Or Arch if that fits their taste.
All well and good, but is the Porteus user base large enough to make it worth brokenman's time, just to keep us old fogies happy?

Personally, I think Nemesis is coming along very nicely, and it probably has a better chance of working on your new notebook.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#269 by Jack » 27 Jan 2016, 22:05

Here is a few question's

1. When will the next Nemesis be release?
2. How soon will there be a Mate version?
3. Can I use the current version and add Mate and dependency like I would add any other program?

What I do like about Nemesis you can keep it current and less work for brokenman and I hope it is true for him.
I just like Slackware because I think it teach you about Linux to build packages where Ubuntu is like Windows you just install programs you want.

aus9

Re: The future of Porteus

Post#270 by aus9 » 27 Jan 2016, 22:50

altho I could do this by pm to killermenpl let me explain to all those who think they weren't insulted why I was insulted.
I installed Nemesis on my USB stick for testing. I booted it up for a quick test if it even works for me (not every Linux distro works on my PC and I have no idea why). I like how Wi-Fi works without any extra configuration
This user needed help on Porteus and neko kernel that worked for his wifi device. And it was I that helped him.

Wifi on Nemesis worked out-of-the-box so when he wrote
For me it's just more work to get to where Slackware Porteus is right now.
The reality is Porteus was MORE work than Nemesis

Since killermenpl declared English is pretty good he can expect an official warning if I believe he is lying in any future posts.

I am tired of seeing people push their agendas and believe they can say something and not accept the consequences of their actions.

If other mods now feel I need to lose my mod powers so be it.

I don't like being lied to. I am human too.

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