The future of Porteus

New features which should be implemented in Porteus; suggestions are welcome. All questions or problems with testing releases (alpha, beta, or rc) should go in their relevant thread here, rather than the Bug Reports section.
Bogomips
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#211 by Bogomips » 06 Jan 2016, 19:54

brokenman wrote: When I look at the livecd operating systems there are many for Ubuntu, but not so many for arch.
Quite a few of these are not so alive, as they claim to be. Seem to be install ISOs with live taster. Mint up to 16 worked ok for me. Was able to install two or three packages every session and get my work done. At session start would have:

Code: Select all

Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/cow            438M   36M  402M   9% /
But come Mint 17, had to install nvidia driver. So start off in nomode, install driver, after which left with around 120MB cow, making it tricky to install anything else. Casting around, looking at all these pseudo live systems, finally stumbled upon Porteus.

With Ubuntu there is also the matter of negotiating with Canonical for use of their repos (Mint had to), although suppose for small fry may not be an issue.

Then there is a twin of Porteus, MagOS (d.o.b. somewhat pre 2009) , which came to hear about in Russian section of forum. The wiki on MagOS also mentions in the same breath:
Porteus
Puppy Linux
SliTaz
Slax

Downloaded iso and burnt to DVD, but not been able to get through MagOS specific part after live scripts finished with, for both 64 and 32 bit isos, during boot process. Probably have more success going from a downloaded tar ball. Anyway there is a 64bit version and a 32 bit one but based on different Rosas:
1. 2014.64 (Rosa Desktop Fresh 64bit)
2. 2014red (Rosa Enterprise Desktop 32bit)
on timescale:
• 2015-12-12: Distribution Release: ROSA R6 "Desktop Fresh LXQt"
• 2015-07-25: Distribution Release: ROSA R6 "Desktop Fresh"
• 2014-12-25: Distribution Release: ROSA R5 "Desktop Fresh"
• 2014-10-09: Distribution Release: ROSA R4 "Desktop Fresh"
• 2014-02-01: Distribution Release: ROSA 2012 R2 "Desktop Fresh GNOME"
• 2013-12-30: Distribution Release: ROSA 2012 R2 "Desktop Fresh LXDE"
• 2013-12-06: Distribution Release: ROSA 2012 R2 "Desktop Fresh"
• 2013-06-20: Distribution Release: ROSA 2012 R1 "Desktop Fresh LXDE"
• 2013-06-09: Distribution Release: ROSA 2012 R1 "Desktop Fresh"
• 2013-04-18: Distribution Release: ROSA 2012 RP2 "Enterprise Desktop"
The 'Fresh' ones are reckoned to be more suited to domestic use, and yes they all seem to have systemd. :unknown:
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#212 by tome » 06 Jan 2016, 20:09

It could be so that after some time of searching and checking possible base distros, the answer for the best one would be Slackware (new base -> new problems). Searching for the best base distro is a waste of time, because the best one for all doesn't exist, as we can see. Some interesting features has for example Gobolinux - modular file hierarchy, own boot system initialization procedure and the "Compile" system similar to Gentoo's Portage system (easy maintenance).
I think, priority should have the best base distro for devs and lack of ready made packages is over-exaggerated problem. Make it good for you, and it will be good for those who follow your ideas.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#213 by Bogomips » 06 Jan 2016, 20:20

tome wrote:It could be so that after some time of searching and checking possible base distros, the answer for the best one would be Slackware (new base -> new problems).
Echoed my very thoughts. (Seem to have come full circle) :D
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#214 by brokenman » 06 Jan 2016, 21:28

lack of ready made packages is over-exaggerated problem
In my opinion it's not. We have seen time and again the main complaint about slackware is the lack of packages. The best base for me is the one that minimizes my workload. USM is a part of tht workload. In the last 3 weeks I have battled with getting three apps to run on slackware that took me 5 seconds to get running on arch.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#215 by philanc » 06 Jan 2016, 21:29

+1 for using Ubuntu LTS as a base.

As aus9 explained well in his recent post, a rolling distro might not be the best/easiest fit for the quaterly update model evoked by brokenman.

Ubuntu, and even the so-called "lightweight" Lubuntu are certainly too bloated for a lean Porteus.

If Ubuntu LTS is considered as a base, I would suggest starting with Ubuntu Core
(see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Core ).

Ubuntu Core is a good set of common libraries and minimal CLI environment -- as they say, "enough to start adding packages with apt-get".

Just to get an idea of size and frequency of updates: The last U. Core LTS, 14.04.3 tar.gz was 63MB. U Core 14.04 was updated 3 times after the initial version in April 2014. Last update was in Aug 2015.

see: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/r ... 4/release/

and the list of packages/versions in the last nightly for the future Ubuntu Core 16.04 LTS:
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/d ... 4.manifest

HTH

Phil

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#216 by roadie » 06 Jan 2016, 21:42

Using a rolling distro doesn't mean you have to upgrade the base to the latest release. It can be upgraded to a snapshot from a month earlier...well tested and bugs fixed. And if there are problems, just don't upgrade until the problems are fixed.

Really, I think the ones who want the latest and greatest are going to do it themselves anyway, and thats fine as long as they understand there is no support for doing that....except from the Arch or Ubuntu forums.

Why is it that I want to gag when I have to type Ubuntu?

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#217 by philanc » 06 Jan 2016, 22:32

Why is it that I want to gag when I have to type Ubuntu?
Ubuntu: 1.0 GB
Ubuntu Core: 63 MB

Maybe what is making you gag is somewhere in the 937 other MB :)

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#218 by roadie » 06 Jan 2016, 22:35

philanc wrote:
Why is it that I want to gag when I have to type Ubuntu?
Ubuntu: 1.0 GB
Ubuntu Core: 63 MB

Maybe what is making you gag is somewhere in the 937 other MB :)

Yup, that could be part of it.

aus9

Re: The future of Porteus

Post#219 by aus9 » 07 Jan 2016, 00:05

well let me be another broken record.

Lets pretend we have a base that is a rolling release and 2 members who choose to combine/merge modules both to get a certain piece of software...lets name it VLC

Member one did their module creation one month ago
Member two did theirs today.

Member one then adds a new module for a different piece of software lets call it Gimp.
(and I am making this up)
reboots and the dependencies of Gimp need software version 2 but older module loads last and over-writes software verstion 2 back to 1.
result, gimp no longer works.

IMHO we need to consider not just the rolling release nature of any base but also whether miodule merging actually makes it easier for members.

Is that clearer?

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#220 by brokenman » 07 Jan 2016, 00:26

One thing I've noticed when using pacman is that sometimes the link for the package is broken. I am forced to run pacman -Sy and then the link works again. If we use this snapshot feature would this still happen? In this scenario I can see happening exactly what aus9 explains above.

In the latest v3.5 release I placed pamac in the system tray to see what happens when users update packages. One of the updates I left untouched was mesa. A fairly fundamental package. Let's see what happens. You can get it from the server now. KDE desktop is also there.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#221 by roadie » 07 Jan 2016, 00:58

@aus9,

I've run into that very thing just installing from the repo over a 2 week period. There is apparently no control over what a package builder specs for depends.

@brokenman,
Thanks for the new release...I'm not finished playing with the last one yet. :crazy:
You do keep things interesting around here.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#222 by TT4Foss » 07 Jan 2016, 02:04

Hello:

I'm going on a rant, it's been a long time coming.

First of all I've never contributed to the project, financially or otherwise, but yet feel that I have a divine-given right to complain about anything, including the weather.
Oh wait, you have heard that lame argument a zillion times before. OK, never mind.

Seriously though ...


Thanks to all who have contributed to Porteus in the past and hopefully in the future.

I think that too many people are getting bogged down in details regarding the future of Porteus.

Diversity in nature, people, culture, ideas and technology is worth maintaining.

I would love to see a Slackware-based Porteus, a Debian-based Porteus, an Arch-based Porteus, and perhaps a Fedora-based Porteus.
Fundamentally there are not many 'different' distributions, too many are based on ubuntu (and I still remember the Amazon thing).

One person does not have enough time to work on four different distributions. An army of volunteers is needed.

It might be helpful if the next official release of Porteus (or whatever you wish to call it) focused on helping other people build/customize their own distribution.
(Doesn't matter to me which base distribution is used, I will adapt. I remember swapping 3.5" floppies with Slackware pre-version 1.0 but it was still better than what I had at the time)
I've seen so many different distributions come/go that I don't get emotionally attached. I've had issues with every linux system I've ever used.

Porteus is built upon another platform. If that platform is suddenly no longer maintained then what happens to Porteus? A lack of platform diversity is a risk to any project.

My suggestion:
Just pick a base distribution and release a solid platform and then encourage/help others to build a platform using a different base distribution using the ideas of Porteus.
The ideas for the first two modules (000-kernel* & 001-base*) could easily be extended to other distributions.

You might get more volunteers who could share ideas and make better platforms for everyone.
People might be more willing to help if then can get a linux base distribution of their choice.
For example, the Arch team releases a platform then perhaps helps out the Slackware team with testing.
Or maybe the Slackware team has a great idea that gets picked up by the Arch team.


Puppy Linux has recent Slacko and Tahr releases (perhaps a zillion other not so well know puppies) and they all share common ideas/tools.
Last time I checked distrowatch, Puppy was more popular than Porteus (won't say better - which is very subjective anyway).

IMO, embracing diversity is a key to survival.

If Porteus becomes a platform of ideas then it might become more useful/popular than ever.
Porteus has so much to offer and I would hate to see it wither away.

Things I love about Porteus:
- small size, boots to memory, no disk required (lower-trace computing)
- modules (easier to customize)
- bash script system files are fairly straight-forward to follow/learn
(have a look at any Puppy Linux for comparison, not as clean, but different issues)


BTW recently I found a lower-trace-computing-style linux platform called DebianDog
at: github.com/DebianDog/Jessie
that might help get someone started with a Debian-based distribution. Looks really nice.
DebianDogJesse has a zillion boot options (half for systemd and half for sysvinit to keep everyone happy)

Porteus/Puppy/TinyCore - it's all good stuff.

When Redmound slams shut the Windoz-7 update channel then there may be a zillion Redmound refugees looking for a new platform.
Perhaps Porteus could be that platform?

Hopefully they will eventually realize that using Redmond or Coppertino products is just another way to help maintain someone's yacht.

Thanks for reading my rant. Looking forward to the future of Porteus.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#223 by brokenman » 07 Jan 2016, 02:22

I remember swapping 3.5" floppies with Slackware pre-version 1.0 but it was still better than what I had at the time.
Could sure use some of that experience here so I sincerely hope you visit again once we release a stable base.
IMO, embracing diversity is a key to survival.
Never a truer word was spoken. The Han knew it. Darwin knew it. Apparently nature was the first to know about it became an intrinsic part of maintaing a species on planet earth. In the world of computing tha change is exponential. If you sit still you get left behind at an ever increasing pace.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#224 by Jack » 07 Jan 2016, 02:39

Well said TT4Foss I agree with what you said. If I could and understand how to build I would help in a heart beat but I don't know how.

It like my radio in my car I like the oldies music and about every 2 year the FM radio stations changes it's format. Now on the FM band there is no oldies stations now, so now I went to the AM band so I can have the oldies. AM is ok but not the best. I know this is not what is going on here but what I'm trying to say is I don't want to have to look for another linux distro.
I just like Slackware because I think it teach you about Linux to build packages where Ubuntu is like Windows you just install programs you want.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#225 by Bogomips » 07 Jan 2016, 12:13

Jack wrote:If I could and understand how to build I would help in a heart beat but I don't know how.
A step by step HOWTO or wiki would help a lot in getting it off the ground.
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