The future of Porteus

New features which should be implemented in Porteus; suggestions are welcome. All questions or problems with testing releases (alpha, beta, or rc) should go in their relevant thread here, rather than the Bug Reports section.
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francois
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#106 by francois » 12 Nov 2015, 21:21

Nobody's rushing you.

I really go for this one. This is wise. 8)
Carpe diem.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#107 by KnallKopf » 13 Nov 2015, 00:03

@ brokenman
can you give me a workflow how can i build the slackware-based porteus.
The old porteus is too good that i can let them die.
I will try to build a updated copy of the old porteus.

It is a littlebit crazy that where Porteus is perfect (the USM is a great work) the evolution stops.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#108 by brokenman » 13 Nov 2015, 00:56

The workflow is like this:

1) download slackware ISO
2) mount on loop
3) copy required packages from /mnt/loop
You can find required packages in /mnt/live/memory/images/001-core.xzm/var/log/packages
4) Compile custom packages
5) Unpack everything into a folder (including custom porteus apps)
6) Run the cleanup scripts that I have here
7) create a module from the folder
8.) compile kernel (with aufs patches)
9) update 000-kernel with new firmware and drivers
----

If it is a new release then the real work begins. Update documentation, update USM to accommodate the new paths, upload required files to the server, update autobuild wizard.
There is no doubt more I don't remember off the top of my head. If you are offering to help with the slackware version (should we stay with slackware) then it is much appreciated. If you are asking about maintaing a slackware version if we switch to arch then there may be a problem as I don't think I would continue to maintain USM. I could , but dev would be slow.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#109 by Tonio » 13 Nov 2015, 01:51

francois wrote: @tonio:
I unfortunately have an opinion on systemd, and that it is not as fast as it was before. If you can find some resources online, I used Fedora and Fedora 20 booted faster than Fedora 22 and I skipped Fedora 21
This might be due to other factors than systemd. Nemesis boots as fast as porteus if not faster, it behaves better on my old laptop in terms of managing the demands of the different programs.

However, to be objective some real tests will have to be performed comparing the two oses with the same programs before coming with any sound conclusions.
It would depend on hardware and machine type, but usually the problem is identified by the readahead* script, which later became systemd-readahead and you can read about it below:
Although I skipped Fedora 21 like I have mentioned, You can find some tests by Pharonix and for instance here is one by hectic-geek:
http://www.hecticgeek.com/2015/06/fedora-22-review/
It compares Fedora 22 to Fedora 21. ATM I have Fedora 22 on a machine at work I need to use it to get some things done. Some programs that don't run on Slackware, they run on Fedora and because of work that needs to get done. I need a program that requires openjdk/openjre and it was not working correctly on Slackware with Alienbob's packages, need rhino, need iced-tea web, and other programs(have that working on Porteus BTW, but needed new firefox module, because old one did not work). And on Fedora it just worked and these programs have to run them to get work done. Sometimes one asks for help but developers are busy and can't get back to you to fix these problems. Then new updates come to openjdk/openjre and problems get fixed. I guess you may know the drill. See the graph that compares bootup times.
http://www.hecticgeek.com/wp-content/u ... ra-22.png
In addition Tonio, I have much respect and even friendship for you, as much as these Linux forum could provide, which could be really surprising.

However, I will not use the argument don't count on me if the Linux base does not change. One thing I will assert though is that I am looking for important changes. Activity is dying in this forum.

Edited now.
I apologize Francois if I was rude, you are a tremendous person always active and doing a great deal for community. I remember your work with printing problems and cups and *, and A great module for printing was created that has a great deal of printers supported out of the box. It may be a bad thing, but one gets attached to programs/OSes that ones likes and porteus is in that category. Moving to a different base would be many changes and get some users out of the comfort zone. It is not that I want to not give the new base a chance, it is more that I hate to see a great system die off. This is why I ask for the famous scripts(live linux scripts that Fanthom uses). Tomas from Slax has his and are called Linux Live

http://www.linux-live.org/

I have compiled kernels and installed them, got some stuff to work that was not in the mainline kernel, then came along later, tested some drivers, but when it comes to creating a livecd I have not succeded. Maybe because of age, or stupidity? I do not know. I look at aufs, I look at that stuff. I boot new kernel, and voila I get a kernel panic .... I really admire Tomas from Slax for his great work, also Fanthom and Brokenman who can do this stuff*, they take a slackware installation and break it down remove this, remove that*, package the stuff into modules, and create magic. I have tried the famous scripts(linux live by Tomas M) on Fedora, on Slackware and I cant get the livecd to boot, get kernel panic, or something wrong with aufs, unionfs, or other problem.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#110 by francois » 13 Nov 2015, 02:36

I have compiled kernels and installed them, got some stuff to work that was not in the mainline kernel, then came along later, tested some drivers, but when it comes to creating a livecd I have not succeded. Maybe because of age, or stupidity? I do not know. I look at aufs, I look at that stuff. I boot new kernel, and voila I get a kernel panic

Arch linux is DIY distro with great wikis. The forum is rigorous and responds to spartans rules with a very strong learning philosophy. I am sure that such type of endeavour of yours would stimulate the members and that you could get a lot of help there to realize your goals.

But also, I am sure that there will still be a strong learning philosophy on the porteus, but as it has always been on this forum, somewhat more warmfull and helpful. We (I) could not go without the learning experience. Personally, I have the impression that I will have more chances to dive into the core of linux with archlinux as base and with its wikis.

I might be naive but systemd seems more available to the middle experienced linux user. And as I have stated above it is possible to replace systemd to openrc on arch linux. System V is debated as to be replaced in the few remaining resisting distros, but not necessarily by systemd:
https://forum.porteus.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4384

Maybe the systemd issues should be debated on the thread systemd a can of worms started by brokenman:
https://forum.porteus.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4384

where more technical and ideologic discussions could be held, so to stay on the topic of the future of porteus here, and attempting to get the other issues. This is only a proposition. I am eager to learn more about these issues, but would be appreciative to follow the debate on systemd.

No more developper (singular) = no more porteus.

Cordially,
Carpe diem.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#111 by ralcocer » 13 Nov 2015, 15:01

About a month ago I went to the Slax website, and the last post was back in Feb., however I downloaded the Live scripts and the Slax build script, after playing around, I was able to get the KDE Desktop working as a live CD, I also saved all the bundles as xzm and moved all the Porteus scripts to the system and it looks like a Porteus clone. I also got XFCE working. That might be a good way to start from scratch as it gets the packages from the Slackware CD and some from the Slax website. Also there ere some scripts that it merges and you can add any package from a list.

Well back to 3D Printing.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#112 by Michele13 » 14 Nov 2015, 12:03

The pros of using Porteus are imho:

1) It's small. Why do I have to download almost a gigabyte of data to have a basic system working? I like minimalism
2) It's stable and secure. The package version do not change very often.
3) It's geek-friendly. We can play around with it as we please.

4) Home made packages are easy to create.

The cons are

1) Security fixes are not released by the development team. You should fix it for yourself. What if a serious security issue is found?
2) It does not have a very large software park.
3) We use a lot of third-party repositories; this is not necessarily bad but our software source is fragmented

IMHO, we should use a distro that is stable, that focuses on bug fixing to keep our system as secure as possible. Arch is a rolling distro, wich means that the developers of Porteus would have to spend a lot of time to keep the system updated and secure. Debian would be a better choice. (maybe)

I'm having internet problems in these days and i'm surfing the net with an internet key with limited data plan :no: . how am I supposed to run an Arch based distribution if I don't update it very often? Some porteus scripts could be easily be adapted to work with Debian and allow us to activate modules on the fly...

Here's an experiment of mine with some notes that I've collected: Michele13's LiveCD
Here's a Google Drive folder with some scripts and a copy of this topic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2GsW ... W5lMzdYV1k

I also think that brokenman should be helped in the development of this new version. The problem with projects like this is that the whole work of developing and releasing new versions is done only by few peoples. We can't let all the work to fall on she shoulders of three people only. We users, of course, help sending feedback, giving ideas, money, our homemade scripts but that's not enough. What can we do to help?
Last edited by Michele13 on 14 Nov 2015, 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#113 by brokenman » 14 Nov 2015, 12:26

1) It's small. Why do I have to download almost a gigabyte of data to have a basic system working? I like minimalism
Current Arch based solution is under 200MB.

2) It's stable and secure. The package version do not change very often
Very true. Also possible with Arch.

1) Security fixes are not released by the development team. You should fix it for yourself. What if a serious security issue is found?
We do release security updates. So does slackware. You can update Porteus or you can use USM to update all the latest slackware patches.
usm -u usm
usm -u system

2) It does not have a very large software park.
True

3) We use a lot of third-party repositories; this is not necessarily bad but our software source is fragmented
USM uses only trusted repositories. They are watched for some time and later implemented if they are trustworthy.

Thanks for your feedback. I will release a list of things that can be done to support Porteus in the future. If Slackware moves soon there is a strong possibility that we will stay with it.
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#114 by brokenman » 14 Nov 2015, 12:32

Good job on your debian livecd! I would love to try to create a debian based distro but I have no experience with deb. I wonder what the reaction would have been had I announced a base change to debian.

What (in your opinion) are advantages of debian over arch?
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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#115 by Igor » 14 Nov 2015, 13:19

.
Last edited by Igor on 04 Dec 2015, 16:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#116 by Michele13 » 14 Nov 2015, 14:20

brokenman wrote:Good job on your debian livecd! I would love to try to create a debian based distro but I have no experience with deb. I wonder what the reaction would have been had I announced a base change to debian.

What (in your opinion) are advantages of debian over arch?
- Debian is a solid rock as Slackware. There are almost no bugs if you keep using the software inside the stable branch.

- Hardware is well supported by Debian

- Arch Linux (maybe) does not have all the software available that debian has, so it relies a lot over AUR which is almost an equivalent of SlackBuilds.

- Debian is more user friendly when it comes to installation. In order to install Arch you would need to dig a lot under the hood of your system to make it as you like it. (Arch was designed to be that way)

- It contains really stable software, but they are not at the newest version avalaible (they will recive updates in order to fix some security issue). If using old software makes you feel bad you can enable the backports repository, that contains packages that are build from the source code of the next release of debian. The backports repository is generally safe to use, sometimes some bugs may occur but they are not critical nor dangerous for your system. Old software should not be a problem for you, as you're used to run a Slackware system. Right?

- Both Arch and Debian has a lot of documentations available, however the documentation of Arch is more technical and could also be used on other distros..

One downside of debian is that each packages carries a lot of dependencies in order to provide the best user experience. This can be an issue as for us as we are trying to make a small system. this can be achieved by disabling the installation of recommended packages or by recompiling the package from source.

Debian's package manager is complex and can be tweaked a lot to obtain good results. Search for apt pinning, apt preferences, apt sources.list for more info. Debian can be installed even from already existing systems. I used to install Debian even from a Porteus LiveCD!

Keep in mind that Debian is a little different if compared to slackware, it's less KISS and minimalistic. Debian's software is often altered with specific patches if compared to the upstream source used by slackware. The choice of the base is important and up to you. I've suggested Debian because I'm familiar with it and I love it. However I like Slackware and Arch too, so I don't have problems with whatever base distro you will use :)

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#117 by Michele13 » 14 Nov 2015, 14:31

Igor wrote:@ Michele13
Thank you. Your work is beautiful proof that for any basis we can make a modular distribution. Can you somehow help experience PureOs (Debian-based), the project is closed, but it can still be downloaded here: http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/O ... 4623.shtml
Let's use a time machine to browse that website:

https://web.archive.org/web/20131213195 ... ureos.org/

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#118 by Tonio » 14 Nov 2015, 14:46

@Michele13 and all

Debian was a great distribution and old with thousands of packages. However, it fell to the dark side :(
PureOS was a nice livecd(but Big ) used Tomas' linux live scripts and yes used apt-get to do stuff. There are also other technologies like Fedora/OpenSuse which uses dnf(used yum) and OpenSuse used zipper to get packages. However, they too fell to the dark side :cry: . Devuan is the new *free* debian :wink: . There a great deal of distros to base off, but like it has been mentioned what do many users want? suggest? At the end whatever decision is made you will never keep the people happy all of the time :(

@all
I do not know if you have heard of Arne Exton. He is a wizard, he creates livecds from many distros, ie, from Debian, from Ubuntu, from Slackware, from Crux. He has a Crux based livecd that uses Tomas' linux live srcripts:

http://cruxex.exton.net/

Based on OpenSuse, based on Arch you can look at his page for more info. Why duplicate some work when some of that work is already done for you? Also it would be nice to check which one of his variants gets the most downloads? Some of these do you use the darkside program :( :bad: , but maybe those folks don't mind if they boot the system from livemedia, ie., usb or cd as compared to installed on hard drive? :%)
If falling to the dark side is important to the users, don't forget to check the page:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

It has probably been referenced before, but just in case. and another site which discusses many issues prevalent here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comment ... ot_using/
There is also a new distro called Void Linux and it has several desktops and it uses another init scheme, it is built from the ground up and not based on another distro:

http://www.voidlinux.eu/

They have also many desktops and support many packages. Take a look here:

http://repo.voidlinux.eu/live/current/

Now there! You have the power!!!

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#119 by francois » 14 Nov 2015, 17:32

Alien Bob slackware minimalist live version is on his table right now:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5217
http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/why-the ... e-silence/

Maybe the future porteus could be base on that minimalist live system.

@michele:

Very good comparative review about debian and arch. I retain:
Debian is a solid rock as Slackware. There are almost no bugs if you keep using the software inside the stable branch.
One downside of debian is that each packages carries a lot of dependencies in order to provide the best user experience. This can be an issue as for us as we are trying to make a small system. this can be achieved by disabling the installation of recommended packages or by recompiling the package from source.
Keep in mind that Debian is a little different if compared to slackware, it's less KISS and minimalistic.

Arch Linux (maybe) does not have all the software available that debian has, so it relies a lot over AUR which is almost an equivalent of SlackBuilds.

Thus a bigger installation under debian and a leaner and maybe more performant installation under arch linux. However, with more adjustments under arch linux.

How would this influence the easiness to produce modules on both distribution from a basic installation to which would be added Xorg?

@brokenman:
A lot of us have been working at one moment or another with debian (ubuntu). If you want to go for it to provide something looking like nemesis for arch linux. We could be there. I imagine that your pman could wrap apt-get as much as pacman. Which basic distribution will provide the most independent modules (package and dependencies)?

@all:
debian:
stable jessie initial version: 43 500 packages
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Se ... _logiciels
arch linux (including AUR) : 49,600 packages mostly AUR with 13800 binary packages with pacman
https://www.archlinux.de/?page=PackageStatistics
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/
void (listed by tonio): 6000 packages
http://www.voidlinux.eu/
Slackware: unknown
Porteus: unknown
Carpe diem.

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Re: The future of Porteus

Post#120 by Tonio » 14 Nov 2015, 19:46

Alien Bob slackware minimalist live version is on his table right now:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5217
http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/why-the ... e-silence/

Maybe the future porteus could be base on that minimalist live system.
That is great news! Just when we thought or getting bad feelings that we lost the Garden of Eden in Linux :)
Its core is a single script “make_slackware_live.sh” and a set of configuration files. Plus a “live init” script which replaces Slackware’s init script in the initrd image which is created by “mkinitrd”. Essentially it will be so basic that everyone should understand how this works in no time at all.
This is what many folks have been looking for. The other scripts to make a Slackware based livecd are the blin scripts that Austrumi uses. It used to be small <= 50MB, but now it is bigger <=300 MB

http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/2196

and yes, due to the stripping, removing programs that not needed, help files, ..., etc the slackware based livecds are smaller, but some app/command that is useful will not be there. Simply beautiful!!! Thanks Francois you have brought great news :)

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