Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

New features which should be implemented in Porteus; suggestions are welcome. All questions or problems with testing releases (alpha, beta, or rc) should go in their relevant thread here, rather than the Bug Reports section.
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blue4meridian
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Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#1 by blue4meridian » 30 Aug 2015, 13:31

Salutations... :good:

The section of the forum entitled Module "Requests" (regardless of intent) "appears" to be NOT specific (eg. vague). :wall:

By connotation (implication) a "request" is a petition for "help" (eg. something required).
By connotation a "suggestion" is a petition for a "favor" (eg. something preferred).

If a "suggestion" is not entertained that IS expected. If a "request" is NOT entertained that is not expected. :cry:
Arguably this issue is not a dealbreaker (although possibly irritating) but it raises questions in regard to impression.

"Community" feedback is encouraged. :friends:

Best Regards... :beer:
Last edited by blue4meridian on 31 Aug 2015, 10:17, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#2 by donald » 30 Aug 2015, 14:24

Hi
That's not intended to sound rude, it's just a reminder.

We are a bunch of volunteers who are willing to help people with problems out of the goodness of our hearts.
This isn't "paid-for support."
So,a) do it yourself,
or b) if you're lucky, you will find someone who is interested in doing the job for you.
Simply remember that you haven't paid the developer who wrote the software or the people online who provide the tech support.
They don't owe you anything.
cheers

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#3 by blue4meridian » 30 Aug 2015, 15:25

Salutations... :good:

This is not to sound (too?) snarky... but you have just described all of open source since Stallman proposed it's existence (30+ yrs). :unknown:
However... what you should be asking (instead of assuming) is the magic question before responding defensively.

Namely... what "exactly" do you mean? It is easy peasy to kill the messenger but exceedingly harder to kill the message when it is clear.:no:
In antiquity the Greeks had long confirmed that dialog (eg. dialectic) is ALWAYS superior to debate.

List of fallacies

The "obligation" that separates a hobby OS (eg. MenuetOS) from an enterprise OS (eg. Fedora) is potential (eg. ego<effort).
Although MenuetOS (FASM) is light years ahead of ALL of POSIX it will never reach it's potential because of it's resistance to feedback.

You have to realize there is a difference between telling someone what to do (eg. demanding) and telling them what they should consider.
Feedback is the latter. To suggest the road to potential is DIY (eg. distro forking... as opposed to derivative) is nothing short of simplistic.

It should be noted the end user should spend more time using an OS than reinventing the wheel. :wall:
This is why Windows and OS/X dominates the desktop when in fact Linux has more potential.

Again... I confess I live in Jersey :oops:
Worse is better

Only Android (Linux4/ARM) is the exception but it has limitations on heterogeneous potential (supercomputing).
Although nVidia is in the process of addressing that issue using Cuda with 'Jetson' (yes I have one)... 'Nexus' and other products.
It's no accident the IT industry's worst kept secret is that supercomputing is the future of personal computing.

So again... ask the magic question instead of moaning. And always remember... you get more flies with honey.

Best Regards... :beer:
Last edited by blue4meridian on 30 Aug 2015, 17:38, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#4 by donald » 30 Aug 2015, 17:05

well then...what exactly did you mean?
Please explain and use simple words/sentences.
You can surely imagine that I'm not good in "read between the Lines"
in a foreign Language.

Using Linux has always meant (to me), that I have to learn, I have to do.
I may ask for help when I'm stuck, but I would never expect that someone else
is interested in solving my problem, nor being noticed at all.

Interest..That's the main point...I'm free to decide if something interests me and
let me spend some Time with it.

--> "Thats why Windows and OS/X dominates the desktop".."Linux could have a greater market-share"..."IT industry".."more potential"..etc <--
How long will this tirade go on?..and more important, who cares?...oh, I know, the Money-maker do, but not the "Freedom-fighter"..no?
Personally I don't care about the (linux) market-share %
or if anyone else uses Linux.
cheers

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#5 by blue4meridian » 30 Aug 2015, 19:46

Salutations... :good:

In life... it's not what you want (or don't?) it's how you want it. :wink:

In layman's terms this means there is nothing wrong with the forum title.
Except for the part where it appears incoherent. And it doesn't have to be changed.
But what will also NOT change is the fact that it appears incoherent.

Incoherent in this context. If the title is called "requests" then there is an "obligation"... to be honest about what that means
@ least if the maintainer is being honest with themself... forget anyone else.

Responsiblity starts with the mirror. Althought you seem to imply there should be none on the part of the maintainer.
This is how projects lose community support and die or get forked.

So whether or not a distro is free and/or small doesn't give it a free pass because there is still the issue of trust and reputation. :unknown:
Remember... people are not forced to pay (and/or use it) but they are trusting WHAT they paid for (eg. their computer) with a project.
This is why is not advisable to download a distro from the "darknet".

As you know a bad OS can @ the worst brick hardware or compromise it . =@
Or for a newbian create a costly trip to a techician like me (Lifetime CompTIA A+ for 15yrs avg score 95%).

Ok... I so get it you don't care about open source history. However... you care enough to use Linux.
The problem is if Linus (and Stallman/GNU) thought your way none of us (including you) would be using what you don't care about.

Best Regards... :beer:
Last edited by blue4meridian on 31 Aug 2015, 08:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#6 by donald » 30 Aug 2015, 23:05

Let me pick out the point at which to separate our views.
--> If the title is called "requests" then there is an obligation...<--
Nope
Who is addressed by a (module) request?
As I understand it, the request is addressed to the whole community.
Now who of us (the community) has the obligation to give an answer?

An obligation would only exist if we had a contract.
cheers
===================================
Hey Mods
shouldn't this be filed under "general chat"?
Last edited by donald on 30 Aug 2015, 23:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#7 by blue4meridian » 30 Aug 2015, 23:21

Salutations... :good:

The "feedback" invitation to the community is to raise the issue of questionability regarding the title.

"Obligation" is used in the context of responsibility and ethics.
Credible maintainers (the community is NOT responsible for the forum title)
are NOT exempt from community scrutiny or critique just like everyone else.

Time to ask the magic question again. You're not even in the ballpark. Try again.

Also... this is not chat but it is thread jacking. But it wouldn't be the first time. :wall:
It appears to be chat because you are spending more time guessing and less time comprehending.

Again... there appears to be something questionable about the the use of the word "request" instead of "suggestion".

I have raised a valid issue. Therefore... this is NOT a fanboy rant.

Best Regards... :beer:
Last edited by blue4meridian on 31 Aug 2015, 08:37, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#8 by donald » 30 Aug 2015, 23:45

Oh...do we have a misunderstanding because of my not so fine grained wording?
When does this conversation became a "thread jacking"
Anyhow, if you are seeing it this way, I'm dropping out of this.
bye

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#9 by Bogomips » 31 Aug 2015, 00:41

Opinion of Impartial Observer: Looks like hairs are being split here, and I have become completely lost. :Search:
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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#10 by blue4meridian » 31 Aug 2015, 01:20

Salutations... :good:

Hi ... Bogomips.

Basically my idea for this thread was to question the use of the word
"request" instead of "suggestion" in the forum title...'Module Requests'.

The use of the word "Requests" appears to create unreasonable expectations.
By default a "request" petitions help which raises expectations of accommodation.

Whereas a "suggestion" indicates a preference which requires approval.
So there is no expectation other than if approved inclusion of that which is preferred.

This is why I expect nothing from the Porteus Wishlist.
Yet I am perplexed by the "Module Request" section.

If as donald appears to suggest it's every man for himself...
than perhaps "Module Suggestions" is a more coherent title.

I tried to explain to him that pointing out something questionable...
doesn't require it to be changed only examined.

Best Regards... :beer:
Last edited by blue4meridian on 31 Aug 2015, 08:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#11 by donald » 31 Aug 2015, 04:29

@ blue
After reading your last post
I have to admit that I was out of track.
I would have never thought that someone would begin a discussion
(in a tech forum) on the Meaning of the word "request".

However
with the help of google translate:
(Module request)
definition of request:
"asking politely or formally for something"
which makes sense

definition of suggestion:
"an idea or plan put forward for consideration"
not so much

Last post..promised

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#12 by blue4meridian » 31 Aug 2015, 09:43

Salutations... :good:

Ok... now we have a dialogue. Which as a consequence invokes 3 other words. Context... denotation and connotation.
Again... in "context" the issue raised concerns "appearance".

The denotations ("definition"... eg. primary meaning) you gave are correct. However... they are out of context.
This is because they ignore the "impression" given regardless of intent.

You see... context comes from the need to clarify definitions (descriptions) through the use of constructs (ideas) to convey
meaning (connotation... eg. purpose and/or intent).

In layman's terms... you are taking me out of context.

The issue is NOT whether someone is being "asked" something politely (or impolitely).
The issue IS the expectation attached to what is being asked and the resulting impression when nothing happens.

(eg. If I say "good morning" to you and I'm smirking I am mocking NOT greeting you.)

Again... use of the word "request" reduces the community to beggars regardless of intent which "looks" bad.
The use of the word suggestion establishes that it is "every man for himself" so any expectation is moot.


Best Regards... :beer:
Last edited by blue4meridian on 31 Aug 2015, 17:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#13 by Bogomips » 31 Aug 2015, 12:46

IMHO this is a semantic discussion (suggestion vs. request), remote from the real world mix of native and non-native English speakers, who will be perusing that section of the forum, and their perceived meaning of the word request. And for the non-native speaker I guess it is which word in their own language that has most often come to mind when they have come across request in English. (de: Anregung oder Aufforderung, stretching my German) 8)

Wedding Invitation
Mr. & Mrs. Jeremy Smythe request the pleasure of your company at the marriage of their daughter Sarah Katherine to Mr. Michael John Williams at Leez Priory ... :unknown:
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Re: Forum Specifics (help vs favor)

Post#14 by blue4meridian » 31 Aug 2015, 14:26

Salutations... :good:

Good morning...Bogomips.

Quite true... which leads me to the universal underlying problem with the forum topic.
Changing the topic title clarifies the intent of the maintainers and the expectations of the petitioners.

From my observation it appears based on the ratio of petitions to accommodations there is a yawning gap.
That of itself is not problematic if it is truly every man for himself. However... the topic doesn't clarify this.

Which also is not problematic because in the end (intent notwithstanding) what counts is the lack of accommodation
which regardless of title establishes the forum topic by default as "suggestions" (favors) as opposed to "requests" (help).

It doesn't need to be changed. I'm only pointing out what needs to be taken into consideration is that it looks bad.

In addition I've have seen snarky DYI sentiments in many forums (eg. TinyCore... ReactOS) including this one although to a lesser degree...
which are encouraged by the desire of maintainers to have things both ways. Namely... claiming user friendliness while declaring DIY.

Best Regards... :beer:

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