Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announcement.

Non release banter
User avatar
brokenman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5456
Joined: 27 Dec 2010, 03:50
Distribution: Porteus v3.2rcX all desktops
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#16 by brokenman » 17 Apr 2014, 17:53

Also another option would be creating live usbs
This is an idea we have talked about before. In the very near future we will do something along these lines.

Please keep in mind that this is not about making money. This is about the week following a release date and the load it puts on the server. Over 45TB of data since v3.0 was released! (Hamza please confirm) If we could load share during this time then that would even be an acceptable solution.

I am against the idea of putting EVERYTHING together in a large file and having users sort it out. Great for some people. Others would have no clue and let's face it, very few people read docs anymore. It is also not so bandwidth friendly. Lastly I think I mentioned that the web wizards is one of our great assets. It makes creating your ISO a piece of cake. The ideal solution will involve keeping the wizard and managing bandwidth.
How do i become super user?
Wear your underpants on the outside and put on a cape.

User avatar
Hamza
Warlord
Warlord
Posts: 1847
Joined: 28 Dec 2010, 07:41
Distribution: Porteus
Location: France

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#17 by Hamza » 17 Apr 2014, 20:23

Over 45TB of data since v3.0 was released! (Hamza please confirm) If we could load share during this time then that would even be an acceptable solution.
No. Porteus used more than 12TB of bandwidth just for wizards since v3.0 release. However, Porteus has used more than 56TB (as of now - just for wizards) of bandwidth since Wizard was introduced to public with over than 70k of unique builds (all versions/editions).
NjVFQzY2Rg==

User avatar
ponce
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 89
Joined: 28 Dec 2010, 10:15
Location: IT
Contact:

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#18 by ponce » 18 Apr 2014, 15:34

IMHO, looking at the numbers, seems to me that the wizard, like other said, has been largely abused: as people doesn't seem sensible at all of the resources involved, offering it as a paid feature could be a nice solution.

User avatar
ralcocer
Samurai
Samurai
Posts: 146
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 12:53
Distribution: 3.2rc5 Xfce
Location: Puerto Rico
Contact:

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#19 by ralcocer » 18 Apr 2014, 18:11

You have a phone home script that checks for updates, modify it so it will give you a screen with all the categories and let people select it and download it from ponce.

att
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 131
Joined: 28 Dec 2010, 17:09

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#20 by att » 18 Apr 2014, 19:19

I think to save bandwith, the wizard could be modified so that he does not create an unique ISO file, but a list:

"Ah, you need to download THIS iso from the ponce base, plus THESE modules..... and you need THIS textfile for booting!"

-> much smaller data to create.

How's about this!?

User avatar
Rava
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 1319
Joined: 11 Jan 2011, 02:46
Distribution: Porteus 3.1.0 x86-64 XFCe
Location: Germany

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#21 by Rava » 18 Apr 2014, 22:06

fanthom wrote:there are the most pre-created ISO's available for free as well as in, the most used wizard variants, like, the top 15 or top 20)
IMO - that would create a lot of confusion. people would have to read a doc to find which image contains what. some people are on limited bandwidth and downloading and ISO just to find that it's not what I wanted could be disappointing. wizard is better in that matter as is extremely friendly and you can pick what you want by clicking on icons.
It depends. We could implement it like so: Having the wizard, but now with the fee to pay for non all standard variants.

And then, somewhere, a text that explains that there are the most common used ISO variants for free, also, and these are presented in a wizard like style, just that there cannot be made any changes to it.
When the user clicks on the URL, he gets another page, listing the ISOs by short description, and when he clicks one of the URLs from that list he would finally get to the page that looks wizard-like, with the one free ISO, but with no option to change anything.

That's not sooo complicated.

The user finds the text "there are still some free customized ISOs available. More info here" either near the top, or near the bottom of the current wizard page; the following pages then explain everything to him...
fanthom wrote:Variant E sounds good to me. :D
every variant looks good if you are the one who invented it :)
I just try to think of something that not shocks users away "oh noes, porteus is no longer free.... they now want money! let's boycott them" while still offering them some most wanted variants... :)
att wrote:I think to save bandwith, the wizard could be modified so that he does not create an unique ISO file, but a list:

"Ah, you need to download THIS iso from the ponce base, plus THESE modules..... and you need THIS textfile for booting!"

-> much smaller data to create.

How's about this!?
This could be altered, like so:
Have the wizard like we have it today.

That gives the user either an main ISO (based on the GUI, I'd say, like the main ISOs here: http://ponce.cc/porteus/x86_64/current/*iso ) or a file to be used as base for the USB creation (again, similar to http://ponce.cc/porteus/x86_64/current/*tar.gz or such file format to be used as ISO file format for downloading), but also all xzm that the user wants, and a script that either creates the ISO on the fly on the user's system, or the tar.xz file, also on the user's system.

Es voilà: User friendly and bandwidth friendly!
Cheers!
Yours Rava

donald
Full of knowledge
Full of knowledge
Posts: 1158
Joined: 17 Jun 2013, 13:17
Distribution: Porteus 3.2.2 XFCE 32bit
Location: Germany

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#22 by donald » 18 Apr 2014, 23:01

Well, it took some time thinking about the pros and cons, but at the end
there is not much left.

first of all, when users create expense, who should pay the bill...the devs?...that would not be fair...right?

Even if you provide the most used Variants..how many?...the users would download all of them (imo)..as long as they do not know beforehand what they want/need.

And to be honest, all the options the wizard provides,
can also be done within an hour with the free standard version..not?

conclusion:
If you (user) want a special service, pay the bill...

User avatar
Rava
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 1319
Joined: 11 Jan 2011, 02:46
Distribution: Porteus 3.1.0 x86-64 XFCe
Location: Germany

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#23 by Rava » 18 Apr 2014, 23:10

donald wrote:If you (user) want a special service, pay the bill...

I agree, but I still think att's idea is worth a shot...

Since the wizard is a great success factor for porteus... and me thinks that success will go down if it's pay only...
Cheers!
Yours Rava

User avatar
brokenman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5456
Joined: 27 Dec 2010, 03:50
Distribution: Porteus v3.2rcX all desktops
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#24 by brokenman » 19 Apr 2014, 17:55

Some great discussion here. Thanks.

Ponce is right. The service is being abused, or the service is abusing the server. Either way there is abuse.

Donald is also right. All the options available in the wizard can be done manually if one takes the time.
If you (user) want a special service, pay the bill <---- I hear: basic edition free, special advanced edition paid.

att had an idea that Rava added to:
I think to save bandwith, the wizard could be modified so that he does not create an unique ISO file, but a list:
The current wizard is great because it is sooo easy. I believe this is why it is successful. Creating a list offloads the work onto the user and they have to manually download more than one file (if i understand correctly). Creating a client side script means windows users have no choice (not good). The ideal solution will keep the current wizard as it is, meaning the result will be 'one click' here is your shiny new ISO.

When we started Porteus it was hosted for free (thanks Ponce) on a shared server. In order to realize the dream of a web wizard we purchased a dedicated server which holds brokenman.co's client websites and Porteus. Nobody knew the wizard would become so popular. Therein lies the problem. A realistic option is to move Porteus to a totally dedicated server (Porteus only) where bandwidth is not an issue. Hamza can load balance across multiple mirrors with his server side voodoo during release times.

Hamza came up with an idea to create an ad popup before building. You must fill in a captcha to finish the build. In this way EVERY build is contributing towards a dedicated server. This is like a small donation every time an ISO is built. With the build statistics we have this could possibly help towards our cause. What do you think?
How do i become super user?
Wear your underpants on the outside and put on a cape.

Dave99
Black ninja
Black ninja
Posts: 54
Joined: 19 Apr 2014, 20:15
Distribution: Porteus
Location: R.S.A.

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#25 by Dave99 » 19 Apr 2014, 20:40

Hi all

New here as just discovered Porteus Kiosk Edition and really like it.

As regards the strain the server/s take when generating the iso, why not (as been previously mentioned) have a script (for Linux) and some sort of program (for Windows) that generates the iso locally on the users machine from a complete download.
In other words, the user downloads the complete kiosk edition then runs the program/script, and this generates the final iso based on the required options/features.

Windows has really bad support for generating an iso, but dd is available for Windows so perhaps that could be used to generate the final iso?

As regards charging for a download, in essence I don't have a problem with it but I can see many that might, especially from third world countries where there are draconian exchange laws and also many people might not have bank accounts and/or credit cards.
Might be a bit of a hard concept to believe for first world uses, but the use of credit cards and even bank accounts is quite low in the third world.

My 2 cents worth.

Dave.

EDIT:

Another approach (not sure if it's been discussed or considered before), is to place a advert on the download page (Google ads), this way some revenue is being generated towards the hosting.

EDIT TWO:

Just re-read the previous post and quite like the idea of a "pop-up" advert.

nocona
Ronin
Ronin
Posts: 1
Joined: 20 Apr 2014, 05:15
Distribution: Porteus
Location: nocona

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#26 by nocona » 20 Apr 2014, 08:07

I found the suspension message rather cryptic. I was wondering if there was perhaps a major security problem with the Porteus distribution itself. This might sound weird, however the message did not give much to go on and I can not read minds or have semi-telepathy like Big Government and Big Business using Big Data.

I could not find any information regarding the suspension online. A 'related to bandwidth problems' suffix to the message might have been nice or a link where to find some info. I looked for an IRC channel for Porteus, which I could not locate. It now springs to mind I could have looked at archive.org for forum.porteus.org. Then a link to facebook was posted at: http://www.linuxquestions.org , old.slax.org and forum.manjaro.org . It never even once occurred to me to look for info about a linux distro on facebook.

I distrust linux distributions that have a commercial element and I avoid them in favour of all-encompassing-free ones. Paying online, in most forms, takes pseudonymity away. I would prefer an option which leaves pseudonymity intact. I will never use Paypal. I have a prepaid creditcard for use online, but I find it expensive, inconvenient and haven't used it in years.

Possible options which might perhaps contribute to a solution:

- I think it could help to direct the download-options at the site away from the wizard service for people who decide for themselves they do not need it. For example the 'download' option in the top menu at the Porteus site does only contain the suboptions: 'desktop' and 'kiosk' but not 'manual'. The note on the 'desktop wizard' page linking to standalone ISOs is below the 'build' button, the text colour is dull and it might not be read.

- If certain specific combinations are build often using the wizard, they could be added as standalone ISOs.

- Restrict the use of the wizard in some way based on the level of donations at that time. More donation money, more wizard, less donation money, less wizard.

- Accept more donation options: UKash, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, flattr.com, ...

- Add a selection wizard in which a standalone ISO is selected to help users that need this help, instead of a build wizard.

- Some of the options in the wizard are not depended on the hardware it needs to run on and can be combined into a few 'flavours'. flavours of Porteus could conceivably be some of the following: security, productivity, multimedia, slow computer, server, gaming, stability, privacy, ...

User avatar
fanthom
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4566
Joined: 28 Dec 2010, 02:42
Distribution: Porteus Kiosk
Location: Poland, currently - Cork, IE
Contact:

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#27 by fanthom » 20 Apr 2014, 09:26

I found the suspension message rather cryptic.
it had to be cryptic to not cause the panic. we were considering many options including the one with closing the shop.

i think we have figured out something with your help.
we have only two options:
- close the wizard and stay where we are on a shared server
- do not close the wizard but move on dedicated server which would host just Porteus and serve it's army of a bandwidth hungry users :)

i'm for a second option as Porteus will grow and sooner or later we will need it anyway.
Hamza found a cheaper server which cost little above 500$, if we add SSL + domain costs to it then we could agreed on 600$ expense for the project.
i agree with donald that devs should not pay for it directly from our own pockets.

let's create a bounty called 'Porteus hosting 2014' with a goal set to 600$. we have circa 350$ at the moment gathered from your donations (thanks once again for that) and there is about 150$ revenue share from DuckDuckGo engine which we can collect at any time.

this is giving us 500$ already. only 100$ left so we can make the target for this year easily.
will we make it in next years? i hope yes as Porteus will be stronger and have more users.
also - let's go with captchas for the wizard. this way ones who need this tool will contribute to the hosting costs.

hosting bounty is always reached for example for the IPFire project:
http://wishlist.ipfire.org/closed
i'm pretty sure we can do it as well.

Happy Easter to everyone who celebrates it.
Please add [Solved] to your thread title if the solution was found.

roadie
Full of knowledge
Full of knowledge
Posts: 205
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 18:41
Distribution: Porteus 3.5...with a twist
Location: In a hayfield

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#28 by roadie » 20 Apr 2014, 16:39

While I think that Linux should be free, it's not right that devs should have to cover costs, especially in this case. The Wizard is extremely popular because it's easy and it works....therefore, it's going to be very much abused as it has been. I think a better link to the standalones is needed, it didn't pop right out when I looked.

What about having a limit on the downloads from the Wizard, based on an IP address? The user gets , say 3 downloads, then has to pony up for more, or be given the choice to grab a standalone. Or, a script system, something along the lines of Slitaz flavors. I like Rava's idea of a iso generated on the user's machine.

A bounty is fine, but it's unpredictable and unreliable and I don't see Porteus getting any less popular. The Wizard is 'special service' and should be subject to some form of payment.

User avatar
Ed_P
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 3155
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 22:12
Distribution: Cinnamon 3.2.2 64-bit ISO
Location: Western NY, USA

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#29 by Ed_P » 21 Apr 2014, 05:45

fanthom wrote:I found the suspension message rather cryptic.
it had to be cryptic to not cause the panic. we were considering many options including the one with closing the shop.
But that's the way it came across, that the possibility of closing shop was being discussed or had occurred. And the longer the site was down the more it appeared the shop might be gone.

Initially the thought was the site's software was being updated, then as time passed the site's server went down, and later someone may have died, or gone to jail, etc.

"Porteus has been temporarily suspended while the developers resolve bandwidth issues" would have been less concerning.

To reread the "cryptic" msg click on this link: http://mods.porteus.org/x86_64

Having a Google ad on the various website pages would help generate some additional income IMO. And I support the idea of putting the chat portion at the bottom of the page as someone else suggested.
Happy Easter to everyone who celebrates it.
Thank you. And to you also.
Ed

rayyu
White ninja
White ninja
Posts: 23
Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 12:38
Distribution: porteus, chakra, tiny core, #!
Location: philippines

Re: Feedback for "Why porteus.org was suspended?" announceme

Post#30 by rayyu » 21 Apr 2014, 12:20

Dave99 wrote:
As regards charging for a download, in essence I don't have a problem with it but I can see many that might, especially from third world countries where there are draconian exchange laws and also many people might not have bank accounts and/or credit cards.
Might be a bit of a hard concept to believe for first world uses, but the use of credit cards and even bank accounts is quite low in the third world.
I am from a 3rd world country and I can vouch for this. Furthermore, also affected are teenagers who don't have access to online payment methods. HOWEVER while I would be gutted to lose access to the wizard...I really would understand and would be happy enough with the premade isos. It really is an amazing AND UNIQUE service...there will always be people who would complain when something isn't free, but I think in many cases it is a sense of entitlement.

btw, have you guys heard of libreante? I have no idea if it is viable for you guys but I have come across other distros that used it

Post Reply