Save.dat container (SOLVED)

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brokenman
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Re: Save.dat container

Post#16 by brokenman » 29 Nov 2013, 19:19

I get the impression this person was not looking for help. They clearly did NOT read the tutorial that they claimed to have read. It explains in very clear steps what to do. I would looove Porteus to be fully automated and be able to guess where people place save files ... but come on! The original save.dat file creator edited the porteus.cfg directly after creating the file. Then it offered to open the porteus.cfg so the user could edit it. None of these is the best option. If the user then moves the save file then they will be asking questions about why it doesn't work anymore. Better to switch on the brain and learn a little from the get go.

Should we do away with all documentation/manuals and just fill up the forum database answering the same questions all the time? Perhaps a category of video tutorials would be better used than documentation? Personally I always read documentation before I jump in to ANYTHING. It saves headaches and embarrassment. I hate reading so if there is a video tutorial I watch it first. Any takers for creating a set of useful video tutorials? Of course we will then need other people to point people to the tutorials and say WTFV!
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Re: Save.dat container

Post#17 by phhpro » 29 Nov 2013, 20:40

correct. of course, those seeking help would still need to listen. ouch, 21fst century... listen... :O:

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#18 by Ed_P » 30 Nov 2013, 03:49

brokenman wrote: I get the impression this person was not looking for help.
Really!! Why would someone post a question or describe a problem if they weren't looking for help???
brokenman wrote:They clearly did NOT read the tutorial that they claimed to have read. It explains in very clear steps what to do.
You are assuming that a. they can read English, b. they can understand English. I'm not sure those assumptions can be said for anyone posting in this forum.
brokenman wrote: The original save.dat file creator edited the porteus.cfg directly after creating the file. Then it offered to open the porteus.cfg so the user could edit it. None of these is the best option. If the user then moves the save file then they will be asking questions about why it doesn't work anymore. Better to switch on the brain and learn a little from the get go.
How about an error msg when Porteus boots that indicates the save file is no longer found if it's been moved? No searching involved but no mystery either.

I'm not positive but I believe my changes weren't saved with 2.1 either initially until I used Porteus to initialize the save file. I don't recall doing that in prior releases I tried. I could be wrong.
brokenman wrote:Should we do away with all documentation/manuals and just fill up the forum database answering the same questions all the time?
Which would take less time and effort?
brokenman wrote:Perhaps a category of video tutorials would be better used than documentation? Personally I always read documentation before I jump in to ANYTHING. It saves headaches and embarrassment. I hate reading so if there is a video tutorial I watch it first. Any takers for creating a set of useful video tutorials? Of course we will then need other people to point people to the tutorials and say WTFV!
Good grief. I'm not a fan of videos, too hard to hear. Embedded subtitles might help though. Documentation is useful, for problem solving, if it is indexed and broken down in an index or menu but that takes effort and skill and trust me good techs are poor documenters.

I think a forum is an excellent way to help people who are confused, lost, frustrated, etc. And I think the admins and senior members here are excellent at helping newbies. But I think my efforts to help the OP lost a potential Porteus user. :(
Ed

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#19 by fanthom » 30 Nov 2013, 09:51

How about an error msg when Porteus boots that indicates the save file is no longer found if it's been moved?
that message is there and is asking for correcting cheatcodes. you have to press enter to continue booting so a lot of time to read/understand it.

btw: we had a code in linuxrc for creating save.dat automatically during boot but dropped it in favor of 'Porteus save.dat manager' for few reasons:
- (mentioned by brokenman) user can decide where to place the save.dat container
- user can choose it's size
- user can decide if container should be encrypted
- user can decide about filesystem used for the container

dealing with such many options is easier in GUI (especially for fresh linux users) than text mode so we rather will be sticking to our current approach.
Please add [Solved] to your thread title if the solution was found.

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#20 by francois » 30 Nov 2013, 12:31

I think that EdP is clearly making some point. For someone new coming to porteus which has already a quite satisfying OS, just to try the PORTEUS beast, asking him to read all the faq and tutorials, is quite a big job. Even though these are really well written. You just want to explore the new distribution. And the save change option is simply one of the most important feature of an OS.

What went wrong here is that the guy got emotional. There are specific features to the porteus os. As hard as you guys worked to make it wysiwyg, there are still some aspect strange for someone coming from another planet (please watch the fantastic District 9 film). For sure, what will not help is for us getting emotional too. We should rather keep a zen and helpful attitude, and ask them to do so. Or just pass our turn, so that someone else more patient picks it up.

Personally, I really dislike being bluntly told to RTFM. However, if I am courteously told to have a look at some document most of the time or better once and a while, I will not make a fuss. I will rather understand that this counselling is to help me as new forum member to learn something. However, there is simply some days where you simply do not have the patience to do things, unless your part of this group of persons that have the blaming attitude almost patented into their genes.

On one hand, do we want to build membership, what type of membership do we want? I never liked to be treated roughly when I come for the first time to a new forum.

On the other hand, some little fight once and a while does not hurt so much. Its just disgracious. Personally, I do not like to have that on my forum. But its life. 8)
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Re: Save.dat container

Post#21 by Ed_P » 30 Nov 2013, 15:44

fanthom wrote:
How about an error msg when Porteus boots that indicates the save file is no longer found if it's been moved?
that message is there and is asking for correcting cheatcodes. you have to press enter to continue booting so a lot of time to read/understand it.
Excellent. Does the message mention, or point to a document, that informs the user to use the "Porteus save.dat manager" to resolve the problem?
fanthom wrote:dealing with such many options is easier in GUI (especially for fresh linux users) than text mode so we rather will be sticking to our current approach.
Totally agree. And I've used it and it is great. But if your new and don't know you basically have to use it to save data, or how to find it....

francois wrote:I think that EdP is clearly making some point.
Thank you.
Ed

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#22 by fanthom » 30 Nov 2013, 17:38

Does the message mention, or point to a document, that informs the user to use the "Porteus save.dat manager" to resolve the problem?
i dont think there is a need for this as in order to get this message user would have to use "Porteus save.dat manager" to create actual save.dat and modify porteus.cfg for something like 'changes=my-save.dat' so i assume that he knows already what cheatcodes/Porteus save.dat manager are.
Please add [Solved] to your thread title if the solution was found.

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#23 by Ed_P » 30 Nov 2013, 18:48

fanthom wrote:to get this message user would have to use "Porteus save.dat manager" to create actual save.dat and modify porteus.cfg for something like 'changes=my-save.dat' so i assume that he knows already what cheatcodes/Porteus save.dat manager are.
The default boot menu for Porteus-RazorQT-v2.1-x86_64 shows the changes= option already present for the Graphics mode (Razor) item.

Code: Select all

APPEND initrd=initrd.xz changes=/porteus
I suspect the others ISOs do also. The user doesn't have to add it. However, if the file system is a standard Linux filesystem doesn't Porteus automatically create the save file, but not if it's a FAT type filesystem? If so not everyone is going to encounter the problem when initially using Porteus.

In that the OP's menu had additional cheatcodes it sure seems like he was reading something to change the boot processs. And it didn't point him to the GUI menu for saving changes. Does the tutorial he referenced need tweaking, or the error msg?
Ed

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#24 by budchekov » 30 Nov 2013, 19:59

Thanks for the responses EdP @ francois, for the fanboys; I've been using Linux for years, I know my way around Ubuntu flavors, Puppy and number of 'lite' flash drive distros rather well.

It's just bloody arrogance ( brokenman)
I get the impression this person was not looking for help.
to suggest I can't read and don't know how to amend a line as suggested. Fact is it won't save to the FAT 32 flash drive where I have Porteus and 'portsave'.dat installed.
Evidently some are aware of the problem yet no one can come up with a solution.
@Fannying about "correcting cheatcodes" is BS, hardly a USER friendly option.

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#25 by donald » 30 Nov 2013, 20:31

@EdP
However, if the file system is a standard Linux filesystem doesn't Porteus automatically create the save file,
No,it's a Folder,and the Foldersize is flexible on a linux filesystem
On FAT you need the save.dat container to have a filesystem which take care
about the permissions.So you have to create one and to choose how big it should be,
depending on how much you are going to save.(and where you want it to be)
And it didn't point him to the GUI menu for saving changes.

If you start porteus the first time from a FAT-fs you get a bright-yellow-message
at bootup:
"A Windows filesystem (FAT,NTFS) or other non-posix compatible filesystem has been detected on /porteus.Your changes cannot be saved directly to the specified storage media with this setup.Please use the Porteus save file manager to create a .dat container and use it for
saving your changes after your next reboot."

@budchekov
assuming that you put the correct path to the changes-line, did you reboot so that this file
is recogniced and used by porteus to save your changes?

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#26 by saneks » 30 Nov 2013, 20:47

folks, stay friendly

when I used Porteus first time, I looked thru the menu for stuff I did not know and ran the program for creating the container file. In that version it even opened the editor for me. now it tells you where to find that connfig file. I got a friendly text telling me what to do and I immediately learned something new. there is a good documentation online and even in the iso. it is not that hard.

create a savefile, open the porteus.cfg and edit that one line to point to your savefile. if you create it on the top directory of your usb, you dont even need path names.

very easy.

I usually make a backup of my save-file on the same usb once the configs are changed to my likings. but there are other ways to back up the system as well.

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#27 by phhpro » 30 Nov 2013, 22:14

Plenty of smoking guns around here ;)

Let me tell you this: I NEVER RTFM - but use my brain to figure things. If I run into something else, I may query it via search, or, if there is forum, try that. Manuals are rather useless these days. People just go clicky-click, not knowing the hack about the system; left alone how computers work in the first place.

Any system can only be as good, as the user operating it; and if that user fails to switch on the brain all else will fail anyway. It's not about being rude, but logical, because that's how computers work. I'm fairly sure, we all have the sufficient experience. The freedom of nix lets you pick more berries than you could possibly eat. If one tastes sour, just try another until you find the flavour to your likes.

This post's question had already been correctly replied to at the beginning. What's cooking here now is mere philosophy. Just as I will fail trying to convince you doing it my way, you are likely to equally fail trying to change my own habits. It's called having a point of view, personal opinion; and that's good. audiatur et altera pars

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Re: Save.dat container

Post#28 by francois » 30 Nov 2013, 23:20

@budchekov:
There is a simple way that you could see if the way you address people on the forum in enough a courteous way. First rule: be courteous with all members. Second rule: same rule ... , third rule ... :angel:

This forum is really aimed to be user friendly, and porteus os is aimed by the principal maintainers, to name a few: fanthom, brokenman, ahau, hamza ... to become as much user friendly as possible. These guys work hard to comply or answer to most of the demands of the members. They merit respect. Its good to put a little honey on your requests. The issue is rarely settled down with testosterone. 8)

Sorry if your first encounter was not as expected. Lets change the tone please. :good:
Last edited by francois on 01 Dec 2013, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Save.dat container

Post#29 by brokenman » 01 Dec 2013, 01:39

@budchekov
It's just bloody arrogance ( brokenman)
Fair call. I can be arrogant at times but only when triggered. I found your initial comment obnoxious.
Thanks for your help guys, the 'excuse' for not making the process automated is ridiculous
If you can jump in the coding seat and come up with something better (contribute) then I would be all ears. I'd love it! Your tone is a slap in the face of all that put thousands of ours of volunteer work to offer you something absolutely free, so please excuse a little arrogance from me. I am one that has lost thousands of hours at your service.
Fact is it won't save to the FAT 32 flash drive where I have Porteus and 'portsave'.dat installed.
Sorry. This is NOT fact. If it was i am sure somebody else would have brought this to our attention. After correctly editing your config file (which you said was easy) it functions perfectly. Pretty sure i even tested it. Perhaps the path you edited in your config file is incorrect. I can't speak for ubuntu but if you are as adept as you say with linux (puppy is an awesome distro) then finding the correct path should not be difficult. If it is then just read the cheatcode.txt document in the boot/docs folder which explains it in a straight forward manner.

@EdP
Really!! Why would someone post a question or describe a problem if they weren't looking for help???
I have no answer for strange inexplicable things. But they occur nonetheless.
You are assuming that a. they can read English, b. they can understand English.
Logically. If they say they read something, and post a thread in grammatically correct english then it is safe to make this assumption no?
How about an error msg when Porteus boots that indicates the save file is no longer found if it's been moved?
When I read the problem I immediately tested it. The system stopped during boot with a rather unmissable error message.

Which would take less time and effort?
In the long run, creating documentation, which is why it is there. Continually answering questions covered in an FAQ chews up time, effort and in my case patience. Not to mention poor Ahau that spent a LONG time creating very understandable and concise documentation.

@phhpro
Let me tell you this: I NEVER RTFM - but use my brain to figure things.
I'm a little retarded at even the most basic things sometimes. If I'm putting together one of those tables you buy that have pictures for instructions i jump in and use logic without reading. Then i use the leftover pieces in another project and pray my wife doesn't place heavy crap on the table.

@Francois
You always have a calm and pleasant demeanor and as such replies to you are always courteous and amiable.

@all
I apologize for going WAY off topic, and I apologize in advance if unleash my sometimes arrogant and always blunt replies on you.
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Re: Save.dat container

Post#30 by Ed_P » 02 Dec 2013, 21:48

brokenman wrote:@phhpro
Let me tell you this: I NEVER RTFM - but use my brain to figure things.
I'm a little retarded at even the most basic things sometimes. If I'm putting together one of those tables you buy that have pictures for instructions i jump in and use logic without reading. Then i use the leftover pieces in another project and pray my wife doesn't place heavy crap on the table.
Me too. And I love the analogy. :D

@budchekov
Have you gotten the save changes to work yet? Did you init the file with the Savefile Manager? (Do note devs, the app's window is labeled Savefile, one word with a capital S. The System link to it labels it "save file", two words, lower case S. (I also think "manager" should have a capital M in all cases.))

As to my situation, I copied, using Windows, the Porteus 2.0 porteussave.dat file from my FAT32 flash drive partition to a NTFS partition on my hard drive. I booted the Porteus 2.1 ISO and used the Savefile Manager to Recover my save file however when shutting down Porteus, RazorQT, I got a ream of IO errors. May I assume I can't copy the file from FAT to NTFS? Or I can't use 2.0 files with 2.1 systems?

BTW @budchekov is your file named Save.dat or save.dat? Porteus/Linux is case sensitive with file names.
Ed

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