Fundamental Misunderstanding?

[nheather]

I think I may have a fundamental misunderstanding.

This is what I have done and got working.

Downloaded Porters V5.0 KDE and created a bootable USB Memory Stick (64GB formatted as FAT32)

I have downloaded Chrome as a browser and copied it to the modules folder so that it persists.

I have created a savefile and modified the config file so that configuration changes persist.

Thought was all going good but then I got a warning that the HOME folder was over 50% full.

Looking into that made me think that the installation is what I was expecting.

I have a 64GB memory stick and I expected Linux to run on that, plenty of capacity, but it is barely used. This made me think - where is Linux then, and why are folders, like HOME running out of space when I have over 60GB of unused USB memory stick?

[Ed_P]

When did you get the warning about your HOME folder? Are you referring to the /home/guest folder? On a FAT32 drive your porteus folders are saved to your save.dat file and I suspect your file isn't 64GB.

[nheather]

This savefile - I created it when I changed the orientation of my two monitors and I got a warning that the changes would not persist unless I created a savefile.

So I created one using the savefile manager, not really knowing what it was for, assuming it was just for configuration data so I set it to 100MB which I thought would be plenty.

But are you saying that this is where the whole of Linux is saved?

To be honest, I expecting to get something that looks like a Linux install, with multiple partitions using Linux file formats. But clearly that isn’t how it works.

[Mike_Walsh]

@ nheather :-

I, too, installed Porteus KDE v5.0 last week - in my case, to a 16GB SanDisk flash drive.

From the sound of things, you were expecting to get the same as a standard, 'full' install, which is how 95% of mainstream Linux distros do it. Porteus, like my own Puppy Linux, works in a rather different way.....essentially, what's called a 'frugal'-type install, where the whole thing is contained within a small number of highly-compressed files. Don't go thinking this means a cut-down, 'poor-man's' version, however; it's just a different way of packaging everything, and is designed to use up as little space as possible. You'll still see the full directory structure if you browse through the file-system with your file-manager.

The 'whole' of Porteus is NOT 'saved', as such; the core Porteus .xzm modules, which comprise the system proper, are permanently inside the /porteus/base directory......and are, I believe, decompressed, then copied to a virtual 'ramdisk' that is set up very early in the boot process. This is very similar to how my primary distro, Puppy Linux, works.....although we use a slightly different system/naming convention, it's essentially the same, since both use the same aufs 'layering' file-system.

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Your 'savefile' IS basically used for changes.....but it's used for ALL changes, not just config ones. Personally, for a drive of that size, I would recommend a 'savefile' of at least 4 GB or so, perhaps 6 GB. All depends on exactly WHAT you may want to add to your system.

I don't know whether Porteus allows re-sizing of the 'save-file' - I know Puppy does - but I've not got this issue. I've formatted my flash-drive to a Linux file-system - in this case, ext4 - and am using a dedicated, named 'changes' directory, specified via the /boot/syslinux/porteus.cfg file. And the big advantage of a directory as opposed to a fixed-size save-file is that it expands/contracts automatically, according to the contents. (At least, up as far as the size of the partition itself will permit).

I think you need a bigger save-file, simple as that. If Porteus doesn't let you re-size an existing one, I guess you'll need to delete the existing one and start again. The regulars here will be able to advise further.

-------------------------------------

Whatever you do, don't let this dishearten you..! Linux can present quite a steep learning-curve for the uninitiated, and having to frequently re-do stuff is common when you first start out. When I first began with Linux over a decade ago, for the first 6 months it was just a case of break.....re-install, break.....re-install, over & over again. I DID eventually learn from my mistakes....

This is all perfectly normal for the early stages of your Linux 'journey', trust me. Just be patient, & persevere; we'll get you there, sooner or later! You'll find it's well worth the effort for the sheer versatility Linux offers over Redmond's juggernaut.

(Just so's you know, it took me at least 4 attempts to get things right myself last week! I may be something of a Linux veteran by now, but it's a constant journey of discovery.....there's always summat new to learn.)


Mike.

[Rava]

Your 'savefile' IS basically used for changes.....but it's used for ALL changes, not just config ones. Personally, for a drive of that size, I would recommend a 'savefile' of at least 4 GB or so, perhaps 6 GB. All depends on exactly WHAT you may want to add to your system.

@nheather
There is another way, too, that uses much smaller "settings module" (mine are called 992-rootcopy-YYYY-MM-DD for example)
But that approach has downsides and upsides:

Upsides
You get a minimally sized module for you personal needs
You learn much about Linux
Nothing is auto-saved on exit, all changes by potentially malicious code will be lost. Only what you want the system to remember it will remember, you are in full control.

Downside
You learn much about Linux; in fact you have to learn what settings you need and where they are located to put them into your personal settings module.
When you change your settings and your system would crash in the time between these changes and you creating the updated version of your settings module, then these changes would be lost. But if such crash would happen when you use the save-changes-on-exit approach a crash would also prevent the settings to be saved. (Even worse, the crash could happen during the creation of the save-changes-on-exit-module corrupting your current settings)

But even when you go the easier to do approach of using the save-changes-on-exit, I still recommend you make backups of that changes-module regularly since errors can happen and your settings module could get corrupted. Better have a working settings module that is one week outdated than losing all settings and changes since you started using Porteus.


Added in 3 minutes 55 seconds:
Just ask a user on here who uses save-on-exit on almost all his Porteus adventures - Ed_P. He encountered over the years some corrupted automatically created settings-modules and was glad he had an (even when slightly outdated) older settings-module-backup to turn to - than having nothing.

[Ed_P]

Your 'savefile' IS basically used for changes.....but it's used for ALL changes, not just config ones.

Well, not all changes. There are folders excluded in the /etc/changes-exit.conf file and files that are saved directly to the FAT32 drive. When I download a file, if it's large I move it to a FAT32 drive folder and free up the space in my /home/guest/Downloads folder.

To see what changes are going to be saved browse the /mnt/live/memory/changes folder. And to see what has been saved browse the /mnt/live/memory/images/changes folder.

Periodically I make a backup of my save.dat file so if there is a problem at some point I can return to it. In that my file manager shows me the date a file was created I don't add the date to my save.dat backup's name but I do name the backup as a xzm file. save.dat > save.dat.xzm thus should I need it I can copy it to my /porteus/modules/ folder.

he had an (even when slightly outdated) older settings-module-backup to turn to - than having nothing.

Agreed.

[nheather]

@ nheather :-

I, too, installed Porteus KDE v5.0 last week - in my case, to a 16GB SanDisk flash drive.

From the sound of things, you were expecting to get the same as a standard, 'full' install, which is how 95% of mainstream Linux distros do it.

Yes, exactly this, a misconception on my part. I was expecting to end up with a traditional Linux install using EXT file systems but on a stick or removable disk.

I predominantly use Windows and that isn’t going to change, but I’d like to play around with Linux more as a bit of a hobby and my own education. If I were ever to start again and reinstall Windows on a fresh PC, I might even consider a dual boot, but my current PC is so mature that I don’t want to risk it at all, which is why I am looking at external drive solutions for windows - that could be USB memory stick, USB hard disk, even an eSATA removable drive.

The Linux I end up with won’t be really be used in anger, I’m not going to switch from Windows as my everyday compute, but what I believe I want is a tradition Linux install.

Not sure that is even possible given where I want to install it, nor what is the best distribution to use.

[Rava]

The Linux I end up with won’t be really be used in anger, I’m not going to switch from Windows as my everyday compute, but what I believe I want is a tradition Linux install.

Especially for beginners a Live Linux has advantages: you can mess up your system and at next boot it is still okay as long as you not mess with the modules or bootloader itself.
When you use a traditional install and mess with /bin or /sbin/ or /etc or /usr you can easily break your system without even knowing what exactly you did that broke the system.
────────────────────────────────────
In many manual approaches for the save-settings-into-a-module exclude by default cache and thumbnails.
But you can auto-tune that and exclude more (or less) folders.

The port standard doesn't do that but explains the syntax and the '!' exceptions

My current unaltered /etc/changes-exit.conf

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# Folders listed in this config file will be saved during reboot and shutdown when 'changes=EXIT:' cheatcode is used.
# Folders starting with '!' are omitted. This is useful if you want to save whole folder except for particular subfolder(s).
# An example is inclued in default config below: Porteus will save whole /var folder except for /var/run and /var/tmp subfolders.
# Other example: "!/home/guest/.mozilla/firefox/c3pp43bg.default/Cache" will skip saving of Firefox caches from guest account.
# Thanks to Rava for suggesting implementation of '!' exceptions.

/bin
/etc
/home
/lib
/lib64
/opt
/root
/sbin
/usr
/var
!/var/run
!/var/tmp

Would I use this approach I would add these lines:

Code: Select all

!/home/guest/.cache
!/root/.cache

These lines would exclude the thumbnails and caches for browsers - in my case Palemoon and chromium-ungoogled (Palemoon sits in moonchild productions/ ) and email readers (in my case interlink which sits in binary outcast/ ) as well as some other programs. :

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guest@rava:~/.cache$ du -scm */|sort -nr
65	total
32	chromium-ungoogled/
21	thumbnails/
11	moonchild productions/
2	binary outcast/
1	yt-dlp/
1	samba/
1	mc/
1	fontconfig/
0	sessions/

(I would even be so bold and suggest that these two lines should be part of the standard /etc/changes-exit.conf ; but that's just my 2 cents about thumbnails and caches not being part of settings / autosave modules.)

[Mike_Walsh]

Well, not all changes. There are folders excluded in the /etc/changes-exit.conf file and files that are saved directly to the FAT32 drive. When I download a file, if it's large I move it to a FAT32 drive folder and free up the space in my /home/guest/Downloads folder.

To see what changes are going to be saved browse the /mnt/live/memory/changes folder. And to see what has been saved browse the /mnt/live/memory/images/changes folder.

Periodically I make a backup of my save.dat file so if there is a problem at some point I can return to it. In that my file manager shows me the date a file was created I don't add the date to my save.dat backup's name but I do name the backup as a xzm file. save.dat > save.dat.xzm thus should I need it I can copy it to my /porteus/modules/ folder.

Very similar to how we advise Puppy noobs. The advice is to move large items.....and things like any browser .cache directories, which balloon like crazy!.....into /mnt/home, the level where all Puppy's compressed files sit, THEN to sym-link them back to where the system/app expects to find them. Everything is happy, yet the save-file or save-folder remains small. I know Puppy's default ROX-filer has a very easy-to-use and extremely powerful sym-link function. Does Porteus have this ability?

We, too, advise changing the default save-all-the-time setting to one where the user has the choice of whether to save or not. That's all down to the 'Pup-modes', which are auto-set at first run depending on the type of drive in use. Internal drives usually get save-all-the-time, whereas detachable drives get the 'manual' choice or a timed, semi-auto one where you specify the save interval.

The trick is in fooling an internal drive into thinking it's an external, detachable one...!


Mike.

[rych]

I would recommend a 'savefile' of at least 4 GB or so, perhaps 6 GB

FAT32 only supports files of up to 4GB in size

[Mike_Walsh]

@ rych :-

Whoops! My bad. You are, of course, absolutely correct; 4 GB IS the maximum single file-size that FAT32 will work with. I haven't used save-files under Puppy for years.....and I never use FAT32 anyway.

Good catch.


Mike.

[Rava]

991-usr_local_bin_2023-09-19.xzm (scripts and programs, for all DEs)
164.00 KB

992-rootcopy_5.0_2023-09-08.xzm (settings, DE specific, not put XFCE in its name since i know my default is XFCE)
372.00 KB

and by far the largest: my settings for palemoon that includes its add-ons, dictionaries and bookmarks:
985-palemoon-settings--RECENT--2023-09-06.xzm
14.33 MB
I only update it when there is a never PM version, so every 3 to 8 weeks or so.

The only exception is my email reader interlink. The way mail works I store its files directly on an internal ext3 partition and link to it via the symlink "/home/guest/.binary outcast"
And this is the largest of saved files (but only when I use the email reader, of course)

Added in 3 minutes 15 seconds:
And I make backups of all three modules, and of my mail files as well.

[Ed_P]

FYI My save.dat is 512MB and to my changes-exit.conf I have added the following ! lines:

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!/root/.local/share/Trash/
!/root/.cache/thumbnails/normal
!/home/guest/.local/share/Trash/
!/home/guest/.cache/thumbnails/normal
!/home/guest/.cache/mozilla/firefox/ple67xm3.default-release/thumbnails/
!/home/guest/.cache/mozilla/firefox/ple67xm3.default-release/cache2/
!/home/guest/.mozilla/firefox/Crash?Reports/pending/
#/home/guest/.mozilla/firefox/ple67xm3.default-release/storage/default/
!/home/guest/.mozilla/firefox/ple67xm3.default-release/datareporting/archived
!/home/guest/.java/deployment/cache/6.0/
!/home/guest/.config/microsoft-edge-beta/Default/
!/home/guest/.config/microsoft-edge-beta/Edge?Shopping/
!/home/guest/.cache/microsoft-edge-beta/Default/Cache/

[Rava]

FYI My save.dat is 512MB

How much of it is currently used?

[Ed_P]

How much of it is currently used?

53%